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Well, in my town, Meta Knight stinks, no matter who plays with him.  I even had an epic battle where I was the Pokemon team and he lost 5-0.  And yes, snake is good, if you play with the brawl power and are good at aiming.  Bowser is unbeatable when he is mega-Bowser.  But I take it that none of you like to play with the "smash."

P.S. I like diddy-kong too, but I don't play with him much.  Most of the time I just choose random and have a go with whatever character, but I am not saying I am pro or anything.

you need to get out more. MK gimps are amazing. and he can rack up damage like no other.

smash balls are for fun matches, and can't be used to judge skill, so normally, I don't use them.

Ring Wraith, I think you're looking at Ganondorf's weaknesses and not at his strengths.  In the right hands, Ganondorf can definitely pack some punch and dodge attacks.  Take the roll for instance.  Ganondorf's is actually quite fast and effective.  When my brother (the one that mains Ganondorf) plays against me (and I main MK, Mario, Link, and Fox), he uses the roll very very effectively to avoid my attacks.  Combine that with Ganondorf's superb strength and you've got a really good player!

any of your mains are fast enough to reposition for after the roll and strike before he can do anything.
and a roll isn't enough to make a good player. superb strength will do nothing because he can't land any hits.

Strengths or weaknesses don't mean much.

strengths and weaknesses mean EVERYTHING and how much you can abuse them.

Falco....PUNCH!!!
Kirby Rules oh yeah

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 12:13:36 AM

Strengths or weaknesses don't mean much.

strengths and weaknesses mean EVERYTHING and how much you can abuse them.

No, not "everything".  Strengths and weaknesses effect about 10-20% of a Brawl.  How good of a player you are effects about 80-90%.  If that is true, then anyone who puts a lot of time and energy into Ganondorf can be as good of a player as any.

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 08:07:29 PM

No, not "everything".  Strengths and weaknesses effect about 10-20% of a Brawl.  How good of a player you are effects about 80-90%.  If that is true, then anyone who puts a lot of time and energy into Ganondorf can be as good of a player as any.

Who would win in Redemption more often, a good player with a national winning deck or a top player (Isbel, Maly, etc etc) with a starter deck?

Strengths and weaknesses are far more important than you seem to believe. If two players spend the same amount of time training, and amass equal skill levels, the one with the better character will win more times than not.

How can you say with confidence who is the better character?

Personal experience means nothing?  May I ask why not?

because personal experience cannot be used as a base for who's good and who isn't. you have to look at the big picture. Ganondorf might pwn in your town, but over all, it's could be just a great player with Ganondorf and you guys aren't at the skill level with upper tier characters yet to be able to equal him. sometimes, the higher the tier, the more difficult it is to use.

Well aren't you supposed to have fun when you play brawl?  We do!  Like I said, we aren't trying to be pros or anything, we just like to have fun and play a good game.  If we are not having fun, then what is the point of doing something besides work?  I understand why you guys play tournaments but we just try to have fun.  I guess that's why we play with the smash ball.

P.S. Snake rocks!!!!

I agree. I use smash balls all the time. but to judge skill, Bowser is horrible. smash balls cannot be included in that.

Quote from: Master KChief on November 16, 2009, 12:35:30 AM

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 12:13:36 AM

Strengths or weaknesses don't mean much.

strengths and weaknesses mean EVERYTHING and how much you can abuse them.

No, not "everything".  Strengths and weaknesses effect about 10-20% of a Brawl.  How good of a player you are effects about 80-90%.  If that is true, then anyone who puts a lot of time and energy into Ganondorf can be as good of a player as any.

20% of 1,000,000 is a lot more than 20% of 0. MK is the 1,000,000 and Ganondorf is the 0. everything. skill is a lot of it, yes. but when it all boils down, strengths and weaknesses (and match up) will decide the winner with two exceptional characters.

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on November 16, 2009, 08:22:16 PM

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 08:07:29 PM

No, not "everything".  Strengths and weaknesses effect about 10-20% of a Brawl.  How good of a player you are effects about 80-90%.  If that is true, then anyone who puts a lot of time and energy into Ganondorf can be as good of a player as any.

Who would win in Redemption more often, a good player with a national winning deck or a top player (Isbel, Maly, etc etc) with a starter deck?

Strengths and weaknesses are far more important than you seem to believe. If two players spend the same amount of time training, and amass equal skill levels, the one with the better character will win more times than not.

How can you say with confidence who is the better character?

same way we can say with confidence that Tim Maly is a better player than I. look at the facts. he's won a lot more tournaments. and 9 times out of 10, beats me (I beat him once at an Iowa state... that was by far the luckiest tournament I've ever played at. thankfully, Gabe was just beginning redemption...)
look at the facts. MK has won an insane amount of tournaments, and 9 times out of 10 will beat any other character. the differences gets fuzzy in the middle with characters like Sonic and Wolf. the fun ones

Ganondorf isn't always slow either. His B down, both in the air and on the ground, is quick and powerful, as is his B forward. If done at the right time, his B up can pack a quick punch, and I believe his regular A attack is relatively fast.

But you can say with confidence that, supposing Meta Knight was not in the Brawl roster, Ganondorf would stand a chance against really any other character, right?

He stands a chance against any character, just not a very good one. Even if MK wasn't included in Brawl, Gannondorf would still be at the bottom. His positives do not out weigh his negatives.

Really the only thing bad about Ganondorf or Bowser or Wolf or Ike or other heavy characters is their speed, which isn't that big of a deal.

Speed and Maneuverability are probably two of the three most important characteristics.

Pit a Ganon main against a Fox main of equal strengths and, even though the Fox main can knock a LOT more hits, they won't do nearly as much damage.  When Ganon does get the chance to hit, he packs a huge punch.  That's the essence of heavy characters-make up what you lack in speed with a little extra brute force.

Which does more damage, 200 weak attacks or 0 strong attacks?

Ganondorf because they have learned the key principle of timing.  While Fox has blinding speed, his brute force is lackluster to put it generously.  Ganon's speed is lackluster to put it generously, but he has brutal strength and it doesn't take a lot of hits to knock a Fox offscreen.

Reaction times play a massive role in video games. I don't care how great you are at timing your moves, if your moves slow it'll give your opponent a chance to think. They'll make the necessary changes to reduce/eliminate the threat, something they would not be able to do if you were faster. The damage your able to rack up with speed will be better than a bit of extra power in most cases.

If Meta Knight does get banned from tournaments, you can bet money Ganondorf's will be a lot more popular.

I'd be willing to bet my money Gannondorf's popularity will SLIGHTLY and Marth's, DDD's, Snake's, etc's popularity will massively increase.


(Directed at BB, too lazy to click the quote button): His side-B is just plain terrible. If they are able to dodge it, which is very easy, you will get punished. His neutral-A is ok, but it is only one moves and is fairly limited. His down-B has the same flaws as his side B, his Up-B is just plain terrible: Slow, hard to aim, limited, and if you miss you'll get hurt majorally. On top of all that, none of those moves are "fast", they are "average" at best.

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 10:54:16 PM

But you can say with confidence that, supposing Meta Knight was not in the Brawl roster, Ganondorf would stand a chance against really any other character, right?

He stands a chance against any character, just not a very good one. Even if MK wasn't included in Brawl, Gannondorf would still be at the bottom. His positives do not out weigh his negatives.

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 10:54:16 PM

Really the only thing bad about Ganondorf or Bowser or Wolf or Ike or other heavy characters is their speed, which isn't that big of a deal.

Speed and Maneuverability are probably two of the three most important characteristics.

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 10:54:16 PM

Pit a Ganon main against a Fox main of equal strengths and, even though the Fox main can knock a LOT more hits, they won't do nearly as much damage.  When Ganon does get the chance to hit, he packs a huge punch.  That's the essence of heavy characters-make up what you lack in speed with a little extra brute force.

Which does more damage, 200 weak attacks or 0 strong attacks?

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 10:54:16 PM

Ganondorf because they have learned the key principle of timing.  While Fox has blinding speed, his brute force is lackluster to put it generously.  Ganon's speed is lackluster to put it generously, but he has brutal strength and it doesn't take a lot of hits to knock a Fox offscreen.

Reaction times play a massive role in video games. I don't care how great you are at timing your moves, if your moves slow it'll give your opponent a chance to think. They'll make the necessary changes to reduce/eliminate the threat, something they would not be able to do if you were faster. The damage your able to rack up with speed will be better than a bit of extra power in most cases.

Quote from: NotOfThisWorld66 on November 16, 2009, 10:54:16 PM

If Meta Knight does get banned from tournaments, you can bet money Ganondorf's will be a lot more popular.

I'd be willing to bet my money Gannondorf's popularity will SLIGHTLY and Marth's, DDD's, Snake's, etc's popularity will massively increase.


(Directed at BB, too lazy to click the quote button): His side-B is just plain terrible. If they are able to dodge it, which is very easy, you will get punished. His neutral-A is ok, but it is only one moves and is fairly limited. His down-B has the same flaws as his side B, his Up-B is just plain terrible: Slow, hard to aim, limited, and if you miss you'll get hurt majorally. On top of all that, none of those moves are "fast", they are "average" at best.

And you know all this from...personal experience?

But you can say with confidence that, supposing Meta Knight was not in the Brawl roster, Ganondorf would stand a chance against really any other character, right?

Really the only thing bad about Ganondorf or Bowser or Wolf or Ike or other heavy characters is their speed, which isn't that big of a deal.  Pit a Ganon main against a Fox main of equal strengths and, even though the Fox main can knock a LOT more hits, they won't do nearly as much damage.  When Ganon does get the chance to hit, he packs a huge punch.  That's the essence of heavy characters-make up what you lack in speed with a little extra brute force.

True, with MK I could probably beat my brother or my friend, but the only reason is because I'm MK.  With any of my other mains (Mario, Link, and Fox, who I'm using a lot more than MK nowadays), my brother and my friend are amazing with Ganondorf because they have learned the key principle of timing.  While Fox has blinding speed, his brute force is lackluster to put it generously.  Ganon's speed is lackluster to put it generously, but he has brutal strength and it doesn't take a lot of hits to knock a Fox offscreen.

If Meta Knight does get banned from tournaments, you can bet money Ganondorf will be a lot more popular.

Ganondorf doesn't stand a chance against any fast or upper tier character.

speed is everything. thankfully, Wolf isn't a heavy character. he's not fast, but he's manuverable, powerful, and has quick moves. also, his side smash has insane range.
Ike makes up for his slowness with his counter and his range. I believe his priority is great to. still, Ike stinks. he's just incredibly fun to use, as he's from one of the best games ever

Ganondorf will only be able to hit three times before he's dead. theoretically speaking. power<speed. even if he did 25-30% damage each hit, that's not enough to kill.

your friend may be awesome with timing. but, he'd be better with any other character, should he take the time to learn.
it takes more than three hits. fox is fast enough to completely shut him out. timing doesn't matter when you can jump over his slow attacks.

well, have your brother playing ganondorf play against rawrlolsauce.

Speed is not everything, or DDD wouldn't be in the top tier.  Also saying earlier that only a "complete idiot" would be hit by him is completely untrue.  I've been hit PLENTY of times when fighting against my brother, and my other brother has too.  And we may not be M2K, Ken, and SilentWolf, but we're far from complete idiots when it comes to smash.

DDD shouldn't be top tier, IMO. but his attacks are quick enough.
I'm not saying your a complete idiot. I'm saying that you should be able to dodge. it's basically the only thing I can do. I'm horrible at landing blows. but Wolf and Marth dodge enough for me to win a few matches. my online doesn't work though, not for brawl...

DDD is top tier, he's pretty awesome. And his projectile can occasionally be a pokeball!