Author Topic: Hearthstone  (Read 216459 times)

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2014, 01:39:53 AM »
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All AoE isn't good, but no AoE is bad. Until I scrolled down, I saw no AoE.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #126 on: July 07, 2014, 02:13:28 AM »
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Here is a 12-0 with statistically the worst class in Arena. There is zero AoE.



AoE certainly isn't a necessity in Arena. I won't argue it doesn't craft board states that either bring you to parity if you are behind or winmoar if you are ahead. But I've personally found having a good mana curve, making favorable trades, and hedging against AoE itself are the most important factors that end up making good Arena runs.
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browarod

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #127 on: July 07, 2014, 02:14:42 PM »
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I'm posting my latest Arena deck because I'd like advice on it. I didn't write down every choice I had, but if there are cards I shouldn't have taken ever I'd like to know, lol. I haven't had the time to actually play any matches with it (been focusing on some console gaming the last few days) and I'm not really sure how it'll do. Unfortunately I wasn't offered any Swipes, but I'm hoping the Starfalls will help in that regard.


Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #128 on: July 07, 2014, 03:12:52 PM »
+1
Mana curve is a little wonky, but still fairly balanced.

0: Innvervate can be decent. Just make sure to keep it in opening hand or mulligan aggressively for it, as it becomes far less useful late game.

1: Claw is great spot removal. Abusive, Goldshire, Leper, and Murloc Raider are nigh useless because 1) their stats are so low that they tend to have the least impact on the board as the game progresses and 2) you should almost always avoid 1 health minions. Always. Any minion that trades to a hero power before you get value out of it is a bad pick. Cards like Worgen Infiltrator and Scarlet Crusader are exempt to this rule of thumb because they have abilities that protect them from easy removal.

2: 2 drops are fairly good. Mark of the Wild performs decently most of the time, just remember to use it on a minion that you can get immediate value out of on the turn you play it (meaning rarely if ever do you want to use it on a minion you just placed down). Acidic always rates very highly and is one of the best 2 drops. Bluegill is actually a very good card if you save it for removal; just think of it as a '2 cost, 2 damage' spell. Allows you to trade him into a big minion low on health instead of trading one of your bigger minions. Yolo Bomber is always a very good pick, especially if you are on the draw and your opponent puts out a minion on turn 2 before your turn 2 rolls around. Novice Engineer is mediocre. While drawing cards can be good, again, the 1/1 stats and the susceptibility to Hero Power is what drives down its cost effectiveness.

3: Mark of Nature is a worse Mark of the Wild that costs more. Acolyte is a decent card, especially if you manage to get more than 1 card out of it. However, it tends to do better in decks that have self-ping, like Mage Hero Power or Warrior decks. Coldlight Oracle is a below average card, it generally only works well in decks that tend to be super aggro (most Arena decks end up becoming Midrange). And the biggest problem with that is your opponent gets to use the new cards generated from Oracle first and with more mana up to do so. A 2/2 body is not enough to compensate for that. Wolfrider is a card in the same vein as Bluegill, most times you want to save it for removal to save having to trade one of your bigger minions.

4: 2x Gnomish Inventor is always a great pick, I am always happy to see one in my draft. The biggest difference between Novice and Gnomish is the body that comes with Gnomish. A big butt and decent attack allows it to trade either evenly or 2 for 1 anything below its mana cost. Very good value. Silvermoon is an average pick, although not as nice as a Sen'jin or Chillwind, it can still trade evenly with other things at 4 and 2 for 1 minions below its mana cost. Spellbreaker is a very good pick; even though Silence itself generally doesn't really have a mana cost 'value' associated with it, it's the fact you get a beefy 4/3 and Silence at a respectable mana cost is what propels it higher in the rankings.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #129 on: July 07, 2014, 03:14:05 PM »
+1
5: Very nice 5's here. Picking up 2x Starfall is absolutely monstrous. One of the best facets to Druid is its class cards that come with versatility; Druid of the Claw and Starfall are valued high because they can both be shaped to be what you need at the precise moment. Azure Drake is absolutely incredible for what you're getting for the cost. Draw a card, Spell Power, and a respectable 4/4 body? Too good. The Spell Power also synergizes well with your Starfalls and Starfire. Faceless Manipulator is a good pick, as you have the comfort of knowing it will either come down tied for your opponents best minion on board, or if you are ahead you just essentially doubled your best threat on board. Also remember that Faceless copies all buffs/damage as well; copying buffs can be relatively important in Arena since some of the best regarded and most common cards are those that apply buffs. Gadgetzan can be hit or miss. I tend to want to save him until they either have nothing on their side of the board to challenge Gadgetzan, or until I can play him and a spell in the same turn so I can get immediate value out of him. You have 4 cheap spells (and Coin, if you held onto it this long) as well as 3 late game spells, so you may get some value out of him.

6: Starfire is an excellent choice, especially if you are ahead. A bit overcosted, but the draw ensures you can maintain tempo while clearing big threats. Argent Commander needs no explanation, easily one of the best cards to top of your curve. Instant value, good attack, and the Charge and Divine Shield synergize very well together. Not much more you can ask for. Priestess of Elune is average at best; not the best body for its cost (I would have much preferred a 4/5 over a 5/4), and the ability is hit or miss. If you can, try to save dropping her until you have a minion or two on board that needs some healing so you can get more value out of her.

7: Ancient of War is also another great card to top off your curve. You should always be picking the 5/10 taunt over the 10/5.


Other great Druid class cards to consider when drafting:
Ancient of War
Keeper of the Grove
Druid of the Claw
Swipe
Ironbark Protector
Power of the Wild
Force of Nature
Bite
Nourish
Savage Roar
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #130 on: July 07, 2014, 03:26:11 PM »
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MKC, what do you consider the tier list as far as arena classes go? I've always heard Paladin is the best, with Mage as a close second, and then Rogue, Hunter, Druid, and Shaman being okay, and the others being bad.  This is just off some random site on the internet though (although Paladin I've heard from multiple sources as the best)

Offline Drrek

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #131 on: July 07, 2014, 03:57:21 PM »
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MKC, what do you consider the tier list as far as arena classes go? I've always heard Paladin is the best, with Mage as a close second, and then Rogue, Hunter, Druid, and Shaman being okay, and the others being bad.  This is just off some random site on the internet though (although Paladin I've heard from multiple sources as the best)

I don't know what MKC's picks are, but in the Hearthstats released for May (I don't know if the June stats have been released yet, but I haven't found them) the win rates were

1. Rogue 53.61% (35106 Games)
2. Mage 53.07% (71793 Games)
3. Paladin 51.77% (50087 Games)
4. Shaman 51.57% (36357 Games)
5. Druid 49.73% (45083 Games)
6. Warrior 45.59% (19308 Games)
7. Hunter 44.47% (26033 Games)
8. Warlock 44.19% (15704 Games)
9. Priest 42.51% (22897 Games)

Rogue has the best win percentage, which is nice to be sure, though it is important to note that Mage had over twice as many games as rogue and nearly the same win percentage, so even with a significant number of newer people playing mage because of the hype it had as the best arena class, it still barely fell behind the rogue in arena.

I think it is pretty clear though, that Rogue, Mage and Paladin are better than the other classes in arena, Druid and Shaman are pretty good, and the other 4 tend to fall short.  Of course a lot of this still comes down to personal preference and skill level with the individual classes.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2014, 04:10:59 PM »
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Mage and Pally are definitely the best, with Mage personally edging out Pally because of a better Hero Power and removal. Mage is also statistically the most chosen class in Arena as well as averaging the most wins out of any Hero, so I think that says something as well.

Druid is third because Swipe is a thing, as well as other good removal and the insane number of quality minions in the late game. After Druid things begin to get a bit less clear cut...Rogue and Shaman are at 4th and 5th. I value Shaman higher though because it has Fire Elemental and some great 'layaway' cards you can cast cheaply on the curve. Rogue I've also not done too great with in Arena, even though I favor early aggro tempo decks, which Rogue does remarkably. Rogue also has excellent Weapons (value city) and solid removal (Eviscerate probably being the best in the game).

Then you have the leftovers in no immediate order...Hunter, Warrior, Priest, and Warlock. Priest and Warlock statistically average the least amount of wins. Although Priest has some good class cards, its number one problem is the early game. Its Hero Power is absolutely useless and usually does nothing. Hunter is the epitome of hit or miss in Arena. The thing with Hunter is your deck can be absolutely broken if your draft offers you the right cards. The class gives a lot of cards that tend to do bad on their own but can get a whole lot better with the right synergy. If you get, say, 5 Unleash the Hounds and end up getting nothing to combo with it like Scavenging Hyena, Buzzard, or Timber Wolf, then you're not really getting anywhere with the 5 UtH's. It's why I fear Hunter decks after about Round 7 or so, because you know they usually have a completely busted deck if they're that high. I've always favored Warrior because of the plethora of good Weapons available, but they fall in ranking because they have no great removal or AoE outside of Weapons. The Hero Power also doesn't do anything at all towards gaining any kind of advantage and does little more than only delaying the inevitable.

Tl;dr: If I had to make a list in some sort of quantitative form, it would be:

1. Mage
2. Paladin
3. Druid
4. Shaman
5. Rogue

6. Warrior
7. Hunter
8. Priest
9. Warlock

If you want to stick strictly to classes that do well in Arena, go with any of the top 5. If you want to give yourself a challenge or are offered none of the top 5, then go with the bottom 4. Above anything though, just remember that all classes are fully capable of 12 win Arenas.

Drrek, that's odd we have slightly different statistics. From the numbers I looked at of over 250,000 Arenas entered, Mage has always averaged the most wins (roughly 5.45 per Arena, 65.24% win rate) through all stages (closed beta, open beta, official release date, and start of Season 1, 2, and 3).
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2014, 04:31:39 PM »
0
MKChief, those were just the scores reported by hearthstats users over the month of May, I have no doubt that Mage has had the higher win percentage over all time.  I am surprised you rank rogue so low.

http://hearthstats.net/may
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browarod

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #134 on: July 07, 2014, 04:40:59 PM »
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Thanks very much for the detailed breakdown MKC! I very much appreciate it and find it incredibly helpful. :D

Regarding your comments in the 1 mana section, is it better to end up going light on 1 mana cards than have a bunch of unprotected 1-health ones? I'm not entirely sure where the sweet spot of the cost curve is (seems like sometimes it's more in the 2 column than the 1 which seems odd to me, but I'm prolly just missing something, haha).

Offline redemption101

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #135 on: July 07, 2014, 05:16:43 PM »
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Since everyone like to post druid drafts.   Unfortunately most of my decks hit the 5th win wall.  I get to 3-0 or 4-0 then loose the next 3.   Any one else has this happen? 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:18:53 PM by redemption101 »

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #136 on: July 07, 2014, 05:42:12 PM »
+1
MKChief, those were just the scores reported by hearthstats users over the month of May, I have no doubt that Mage has had the higher win percentage over all time.  I am surprised you rank rogue so low.

http://hearthstats.net/may
Well the Mage statistics I gathered from all phases. The anomaly does makes me wonder. I also admitted I am a bit biased on my Rogue ranking. It definitely falls under Mage and Paladin for sure. Druid I believe performs better than Rogue in the long run overall (Rogue has the tendency to run out of steam if you do not maintain your early game tempo), and Shaman being higher is just personal preference. Fire Elemental and breaking the mana curve by playing things earlier than they should be is just too tasty. ;)

Browarod, yes, definitely end up going light on 1's. Not too many things at 1 impact the board great enough at later stages in the game. Even Worgen Infiltrator starts to become less desirable and a not so hot topdeck later in the game. 2's are desirable for a lot of people because they have a good number of 3/2's, which are fantastic early game and have just enough attack to be relevant against bigger minions. There are also not many 3 drops that have either higher attack than the 2 drop 3/2's or more health than a 2 drop 3/2 can kill, so you are effectively 'trading up' in terms of mana cost effectiveness. If you have trouble picking cheap minions, just ask yourself how good it would be if you were to draw it later in the game.

The sweet spot for me tends to be 2's, 4's, and 5's. 2's you can either load high on the good ones to have a great early game, or have just enough 2 and 3 drops to get you out of the gate and onto playing bigger minions at 4 and higher. 4's are important because that is the point where cards start to have a bigger impact on the board, and they usually trade 2 for 1 for minions below them on the curve. 5's I also love because that is the point where I consider minions start becoming 'expensive' and more late game plays, and a lot of great minions, especially commons, are found at 5 (Azure Drake, Stampeding Kodo, Silver Hand Knight, Faceless, Venture Co Mercenary, Stranglethorn Tiger, Fen Creeper, Spiteful Smith, Frostwolf Warlord, etc.). Some 4's and most 5's also have the luxury of surviving a Skillstrike, which you will face a lot on good Arena runs. With 5's it is also possible to drop 2 very potent threats with a full mana tray, so that's a thing too.

Here's some tips I draft by: The first 15 cards should be picked based solely on value. Pick the absolute best cards in a vacuum the draft offers you, ignoring almost every other variable (synergy as always should be taken into account). Between pick 15 and especially at 20, you will start to see what your mana curve looks like and is shaping up to be. At this point you should be more focused on picking based on filling out your curve. If you have a severely low amount of 4's and you want a slow/midrange deck, begin giving more consideration to 4's. By no means does this always equate to picking an Oasis Snapjaw over a Boulderfist Ogre if you are low on 4's, but sometimes you'll realize that having a consistent curve will be more important than drafting the best card in the pick. I've passed on a lot of great cards in later stages of my draft just because I needed an X drop desperately to fill out my curve. You'll just have to use your best judgment and evaluate if you will end up getting more value out of a better curve or having the better pick in these particular situations.

Lastly, you should be able to identify what kind of mana curve you are either aiming for or what kind of curve your deck is shaping up to be, and build on that. Here are the 3 most popular curves:


Midrange curve. Solid number of 2's and 3's to curve out into mostly 4's. Average amount of 5 and higher.


Aggro curve. Most Rogue and Warlock decks will look like this. Plenty of 2's and 3's to have initiative early on. Curves into a lower than normal amount of 4's, 5's, and 6's, as the focus is primarily on maintaining tempo in the early game.


Slow (control) curve. Most Druid decks end up looking like this due to the high amount of quality cards at 5 and higher.

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browarod

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #137 on: July 08, 2014, 12:16:40 AM »
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So that druid deck ended up going 1-3, though I did get 2x Druid of the Claw from the pack I got as consolation prize, lol. I beat a shaman who seemed either distracted or that they didn't know how to play, and then lost 3 in a row to a paladin and then 2 mages. The second mage I almost beat but I was 1 damage too short on my last turn. Ah well.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #138 on: July 08, 2014, 01:14:38 PM »
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"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #139 on: July 08, 2014, 01:51:33 PM »
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I guess it's time for me to go infinite on the arena...

Do we know how many cards are being released?

browarod

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #140 on: July 08, 2014, 02:00:59 PM »
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I like that they're still giving the first wing away free. I also think that the prices seem pretty fair.

Just makes me more excited for this to finally release!

Quote
Heroic Mode

Once you’ve defeated all of the bosses within any given wing for the first time, you’ll unlock the Heroic mode of that wing. Heroic mode bosses are significantly more difficult than their normal versions, and they will prove to be a challenge for even the most veteran Hearthstone players. Defeating all of the bosses in Naxxramas on Heroic mode will unlock a new card back for your collection.
We should have discussions about the bosses and their decks to try and help people get ideas for beating them on Heroic. I might make a separate thread for that once the expansion actually releases.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #141 on: July 08, 2014, 02:27:23 PM »
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I guess it's time for me to go infinite on the arena...

Do we know how many cards are being released?

30 total cards.
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #142 on: July 09, 2014, 02:11:32 PM »
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Great success with Paladin dream draft.




Of the last 5 cards I know I had a Tirion, a Reckless Rocketeer, and a Stormwind Champion, but I don't remember what the other two cards were that were cut off from the image.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #143 on: July 09, 2014, 02:21:02 PM »
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That is a really sick draft. 2x Sword of Justice, 2x Truesilver, Consecration, Tirion, nice curve...you had it all. Grats on the 12 wins! What were your rewards?
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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #144 on: July 09, 2014, 02:33:31 PM »
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That is a really sick draft. 2x Sword of Justice, 2x Truesilver, Consecration, Tirion, nice curve...you had it all. Grats on the 12 wins! What were your rewards?

430 gold, golden void terror and the pack.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #145 on: July 09, 2014, 02:52:30 PM »
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Nice. What was your loss against?
"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

Offline Drrek

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #146 on: July 09, 2014, 03:39:04 PM »
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Nice. What was your loss against?

Fellow paladin, took me down with a sword of justice and a bunch of low cost minions
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #147 on: July 09, 2014, 07:05:26 PM »
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12 win Druid. Arena must be sharing the 12 win love today:



Cards missing at bottom are 2x Frostwolf Warlord, Stampeding Kodo, Archmage, Boulderfist Ogre, Starfire, and Iron Protector.
"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2014, 08:22:19 PM »
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Thought I'd try my luck today. Apparently I'm the guy people like you are facing.  I went 4-3, but, man, I got absolutely wrecked by a crazy good Hunter deck.

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #149 on: July 09, 2014, 08:44:44 PM »
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Hunters terrify me in Arena probably more than anything in the sense you always have to play around UtH by never over-committing to the board. Playing just one big minion on curve a turn has always worked for me against Hunters.

Hearthstats June report is out. Some interesting notes for Arena:

- Mage most played class
- Warlock least played class
- Rogue best global win rate at 53.44%
- Priest worst global win rate at 43.76%
- Mage is the only class with no weak matchup (less than a 50% win rate). Rogue in second with only having a weak matchup against Mage (46.11% win rate)
- Priest has no favorable matchups against any class. Warlock has only 1 favorable matchup against Priest, and Hunter only has 2 against Priest and Warlock.
- Mage enjoyed the most 12 win Arenas for June at 734 wins, over double that of second place Paladin with 354. Rogue at third with 325.
- Druid had the most amount of 0 win Arenas at 2,062. Mage had the second most at 1,754.
"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

 


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