Author Topic: Hearthstone (Read 220301 times)

Drrek · « **Reply #550 on:** December 12, 2014, 05:44:08 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 12, 2014, 04:30:39 PM

Flame cannon is absurdly powerful as well. It's guaranteed to kill any 2 drop minion, and most 3 drops.

Flamecannon is very powerful... in arena. In constructed I'd always rather have the target-ability of frostbolt over the one extra damage of flamecannon, especially in a class like mage which is very much a burst based class. Also you say its guaranteed to kill any 2 drop minion like this is a huge thing in its favor, but that's a 1 for 1 trade. You aren't getting any card advantage, you just traded your 2 mana card for their 2 mana card, and, in constructed, deathrattle minions are everywhere, so you might only kill the front end of that harvest golem or such. Its not guaranteed completely deal with that 2 or 3 drop in constructed.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #551 on:** December 12, 2014, 06:23:11 PM »

Mages have so many spells to clear your minions off the table, so all they need is two or three dudes to just keep poking you in the face. Flame cannon just makes that situation worse.

Also, this is what I've been running in ranked, currently on the verge of rank 13, but rank 14 is filled with so many mages...

Just going for strong consistent minions, not crazy gimmick wombo combos. It works pretty well thus far. Any suggestions?

Cards I'd like to add if I owned:

Vol'Jin and/or Sneed's Old Shredder.

Drrek · « **Reply #552 on:** December 12, 2014, 06:33:31 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 12, 2014, 06:23:11 PM

Mages have so many spells to clear your minions off the table, so all they need is two or three dudes to just keep poking you in the face.

That's kind of exactly my point. Flamecannon doesn't really do anything for mage, they have other cards that accomplish the samething but are generally better.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #553 on:** December 12, 2014, 07:21:51 PM »

It just gives them even more to clear your board.

Drrek · « **Reply #554 on:** December 12, 2014, 11:11:34 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 12, 2014, 07:21:51 PM

It just gives them even more to clear your board.

What I'm saying is they don't NEED more to clear your board, and the card slots are better used on something that they actually need.

browarod · « **Reply #555 on:** December 13, 2014, 12:20:24 AM »

To be honest, having played the mech mage deck a fair amount, I can say that there is only 1 time I can remember where I would have rather had a Frostbolt than the Flamecannon and that was when I wanted to kill a specific mob when they had 3. There have been far more times where I was glad I had that 1 extra damage (there's a lot of 4-Health minions).

Chris · « **Reply #556 on:** December 13, 2014, 01:53:30 AM »

Unstable Portal: Not broke at all!

Drrek · « **Reply #557 on:** December 13, 2014, 02:34:31 AM »

I really hate Unstable Portal. I'm still convinced that in the average case its pretty bad, but it has such low investment, and the good case is so absurdly good that it doesn't really matter. Card is way too swingy.

Chris · « **Reply #558 on:** December 13, 2014, 11:26:02 AM »

Quote from: Drrek on December 13, 2014, 02:34:31 AM

I really hate Unstable Portal. I'm still convinced that in the average case its pretty bad, but it has such low investment, and the good case is so absurdly good that it doesn't really matter. Card is way too swingy.

In an absolute worst case scenario, Unstable Portal will cost you 1 mana. That will happen in roughly 15% of cases. The odds of it being neutral or hurting you is something around 30% of cases. That gives us a 70% chance that it will help our curve. Now, knock off a couple percentage points for minions that are just truly garbage (which are really only a few, in this case), and you probably end up with roughly a 65% chance that you're going to get a very good play out of it; something that is guaranteed to give you a major tempo advantage over your opponent. I've seen no analysis for the odds of an exceptional play (e.g. turn 3 Boulderfist), but in many cases such a play will effectively guarantee you a win. If we assume an exceptional game-winning play in 10% of cases, that's still incredibly efficient overall. The highs are extremely high, and the lows are uncommon and don't actually hurt you that much.

Drrek · « **Reply #559 on:** December 13, 2014, 01:03:10 PM »

Quote from: Chris on December 13, 2014, 11:26:02 AM

Quote from: Drrek on December 13, 2014, 02:34:31 AM
I really hate Unstable Portal. I'm still convinced that in the average case its pretty bad, but it has such low investment, and the good case is so absurdly good that it doesn't really matter. Card is way too swingy.

In an absolute worst case scenario, Unstable Portal will cost you 1 mana. That will happen in roughly 15% of cases. The odds of it being neutral or hurting you is something around 30% of cases. That gives us a 70% chance that it will help our curve. Now, knock off a couple percentage points for minions that are just truly garbage (which are really only a few, in this case), and you probably end up with roughly a 65% chance that you're going to get a very good play out of it; something that is guaranteed to give you a major tempo advantage over your opponent. I've seen no analysis for the odds of an exceptional play (e.g. turn 3 Boulderfist), but in many cases such a play will effectively guarantee you a win. If we assume an exceptional game-winning play in 10% of cases, that's still incredibly efficient overall. The highs are extremely high, and the lows are uncommon and don't actually hurt you that much.

People talk all about the probability that you get a 1 drop like that's the only bad case. There's also the bad case that you just get a bad minion that you would never put in your deck, which I think is a bad case that really goes understated. The problem is that the good case is extremely good.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #560 on:** December 13, 2014, 01:34:39 PM »

You still get something from the card though, and it's only two mana.

Thoughtsteal can give you something terrible at the cost of four mana.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #561 on:** December 13, 2014, 01:46:10 PM »

Quote from: Reynad

For the love of all that is holy Blizzard, rework this card.
Let’s assume for a moment that a card existed in Hearthstone that read “2 mana: 90% chance win the game, 10% chance do nothing”. I think we’d unanimously agree that such a card would be overpowered. Now imagine a card that said “1% chance win the game, 99% chance do nothing”. We can agree that such a card would suck. That means that somewhere between 1% and 90% we have a balanced card. I think that number is somewhere around 15%. Unstable portal has about an 85% chance to hit a minion that costs 2 or more. 70% for 3 or more. In the event that you play unstable portal on turn two and get a minion costing 6+ (about a 20% chance), you will probably win the game on the spot. All you invested was one card and your second turn to have a boulderfist ogre in play on turn 3.
Will you get Grimscale oracle sometimes? Sure, but even in that scenario all you did was play a 2 mana 1/1. The vast majority of the time you’ll be breaking even or netting a huge tempo swing akin to Innervate or Wild Growth. Is it worse off the top of the deck later in the game? Sure, but still much better than Wild Growth would have been and still capable of rolling a 6 mana Onyxia. Unstable Portal will warp half of the games it’s played in around itself, and the extremely high chance for a free win makes it an auto-include in any mage deck. Hold on to your extra Portals so you can disenchant them for full dust once the nerf bat strikes. However, of all the cards on this list, Unstable Portal is the one I’m least sure about. The variance involved may very well make it unplayable. Only one way to find out, get out there and play!

Chris · « **Reply #562 on:** December 13, 2014, 05:16:10 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on December 13, 2014, 01:03:10 PM

Quote from: Chris on December 13, 2014, 11:26:02 AM
Quote from: Drrek on December 13, 2014, 02:34:31 AM
I really hate Unstable Portal. I'm still convinced that in the average case its pretty bad, but it has such low investment, and the good case is so absurdly good that it doesn't really matter. Card is way too swingy.

In an absolute worst case scenario, Unstable Portal will cost you 1 mana. That will happen in roughly 15% of cases. The odds of it being neutral or hurting you is something around 30% of cases. That gives us a 70% chance that it will help our curve. Now, knock off a couple percentage points for minions that are just truly garbage (which are really only a few, in this case), and you probably end up with roughly a 65% chance that you're going to get a very good play out of it; something that is guaranteed to give you a major tempo advantage over your opponent. I've seen no analysis for the odds of an exceptional play (e.g. turn 3 Boulderfist), but in many cases such a play will effectively guarantee you a win. If we assume an exceptional game-winning play in 10% of cases, that's still incredibly efficient overall. The highs are extremely high, and the lows are uncommon and don't actually hurt you that much.

People talk all about the probability that you get a 1 drop like that's the only bad case. There's also the bad case that you just get a bad minion that you would never put in your deck, which I think is a bad case that really goes understated. The problem is that the good case is extremely good.

That's the thing though. Even a really bad minion becomes good when it costs 3 mana less than normal, unless it's something like Milhouse (who actually won me a game earlier today).

browarod · « **Reply #563 on:** December 18, 2014, 09:35:31 AM »

Hearthstone is now available on Android tablets via Amazon and Google Play.

Unfortunately my Kindle is too old to be supported.

#firstworldproblems

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #564 on:** December 18, 2014, 10:25:36 AM »

Actually, it is only on Android tablets right now.

They're still working on a phone version.

browarod · « **Reply #565 on:** December 18, 2014, 10:32:24 AM »

That's what I meant, yeah. Updated my post.

Still bummed that my Kindle is too old to work with it, though.

Master KChief · « **Reply #566 on:** December 20, 2014, 10:58:07 AM »

12 win Mage using this list:

Off topic, incredibly funny to see how much Muster for Battle was hated on here...and then turns out to be one of the best GvG cards to come out for Pally. Absolute staple in every top ranked Pally deck.

Drrek · « **Reply #567 on:** December 20, 2014, 01:09:54 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 20, 2014, 10:58:07 AM

Off topic, incredibly funny to see how much Muster for Battle was hated on here...and then turns out to be one of the best GvG cards to come out for Pally. Absolute staple in every top ranked Pally deck.

We didn't know about Quartermaster when we were reviewing Muster for Battle. Unleash the Dudes power is greatly effected by Quartermaster.

Master KChief · « **Reply #568 on:** December 20, 2014, 05:12:57 PM »

Knife Juggler and synergy with Equality still existed. And what everyone seemed to miss was the fact Muster for Battle finally shored up one of Paladins greatest weaknesses by giving it a respectable early game 3 drop as well as another answer to early game aggression.

Chris · « **Reply #569 on:** December 20, 2014, 05:48:02 PM »

Sometimes Westy and I strategize how to be better at Hearthstone.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #570 on:** December 20, 2014, 05:49:27 PM »

Quote from: Chris on December 20, 2014, 05:48:02 PM

Sometimes Westy and I strategize how to be better at Hearthstone.

Is that why we haven't hit rank 10 yet?

Drrek · « **Reply #571 on:** December 20, 2014, 06:09:10 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 20, 2014, 05:12:57 PM

Knife Juggler and synergy with Equality still existed. And what everyone seemed to miss was the fact Muster for Battle finally shored up one of Paladins greatest weaknesses by giving it a respectable early game 3 drop as well as another answer to early game aggression.

Equality already had more than enough strong cards to combo with, another one wasn't what paladin needed. Quartermaster though make unleash the dudes a powerful enough threat to include in the deck.

Master KChief · « **Reply #572 on:** December 20, 2014, 07:34:11 PM »

Muster is much better than Wild Pyro. Did Pally need more ways to combo with Equality? Probably not 'need', no. But no one is going to say no to a card that fulfills more roles and has more synergy with the deck than Wild Pryo ever did. Quartermaster just happened to push the card over the top. One of the biggest strengths of the card is, again, the fact it addressed the Paladins weak early game, which is further perpetuated by top Pally's choosing to run Shielded Minibot over Wild Pyro even.

Drrek · « **Reply #573 on:** December 20, 2014, 07:41:06 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 20, 2014, 07:34:11 PM

Muster is much better than Wild Pyro. Did Pally need more ways to combo with Equality? Probably not 'need', no. But no one is going to say no to a card that fulfills more roles and has more synergy with the deck than Wild Pryo ever did. Quartermaster just happened to push the card over the top. One of the biggest strengths of the card is, again, the fact it addressed the Paladins weak early game, which is further perpetuated by top Pally's choosing to run Shielded Minibot over Wild Pyro even.

Running minibot over pyro is not a condemnation of pyro, but rather just confirming how good minibot is. And with quartermaster making muster good enough to include, you no longer need pyro to combo equality. The equality combos are just a bonus (and honestly, muster is still far weaker than consecrate when it comes to equality combos, because you have to keep those recruits alive for a turn or already have a juggler in hand too, things I wouldn't want to count on).

And as much as you tout the early game muster provides, minibot and coghammer are better early game. Muster had several little things going for it, but until quartermaster got revealed, none of those little things would have been enough to get it in decks.

Master KChief · « **Reply #574 on:** December 20, 2014, 10:38:49 PM »

Minibot and Coghammer being better is simply a matter of perspective. Coghammer usually isn't even a 2-of (or 1-of for that matter) anymore in Pally lists as it clogs with Truesilver and Muster, and well, I preeeeetty much already said Minibot was part of the early game Pally needed oh so bad. That's not to detract any bit of value that Muster brings to the table in the early game, and I can't say Minibot brings any more value beyond the early game like Muster is able to accomplish. Therefore Muster will always be the better card in my book.

As for whether Muster would still be used in lists if Quartermaster was never made: I am certainly not convinced that is true at all. Darkwonyx was a huge fan of Muster when it was first revealed. Being able to slow the board and being a 3 drop is absolutely huge for the Paladin.

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Author Topic: Hearthstone (Read 220301 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Chris

Chris

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

Chris

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Chris

Warrior_Monk