Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Now that the T2 only has passed and we are going into tournament season I would like to get input on what you T2'ers have seen, and have found success with.
I think top offenses are the following:
Standard Disciples
White Ladies TGT
Disciples splashed with blue
Disciples splashed with TGT
Disciples splashed with CTB
White TGT/Silver
Job/Silver
Silver/Prophets-utilizing Birth Foretold
Silver/Gold- again utilizing Birth Foretold
I know there's more, but I think these are some of the highly used ones.

For defense:
Just about everything is being used but the ones with the edge, IMO, are...
Gray -specifically Pharisees
Orange- yeah I said it, Destructive Sin/Strong Demon for Thad, orange is a top contender
Banding BTN

Anything that I missed or your opinion on what is a top deck, or a top contender on offense or defense?

Herods also have an edge on defense.  They're strong against Disciples and Job.  They struggle against TGT ladies but there are ways to account for that if you take it into consideration.

I thought they were not strong against Job? Job doesnt do much for me but against Herods, seemed like Job wins.

That was my thinking too. A theme whose best traits are anti-banding characters and capture don't seem well-suited against a hero who is usually by himself and cannot be captured. They have no way to play first by SA, and most Herods will give Job initiative (which all T2 players know is a bad idea in most cases). Lastly, Herod's aren't great vs. Job's pals, the Angels. I'd say whoever is using a Job deck that is failing vs. Herods is probably doing it wrong.

I agree that Herods are great vs. most other offenses except TGT. If my Herods deck had, as TheHobbit would say, a legitimate offense (i.e. not Red), it probably would have won at least 2-3 more tourney games in the two tournaments I've used it. They dominate Prophets or Priests, usually with just Salome, Herod Agrippa II, and Herod's Dungeon over and over again. I've only faced one Disciples offense with my deck, and they performed admirably despite the utter failure of my offense to do anything. I forced The Guardian to basically wait until he got Lampstand and Covenant of Palestine before he was able to mount a successful attack, but it didn't take long after that for him to finish me off.

The fact that they can now use Romans Destroy Jerusalem would probably help them against TGT ladies immensely. I could definitely see a Job/Herods T2 doing fairly well.

I use two Priestly Crowns and CP,Golgotha so the gold site gets me early. I agree with Gabe, Tier 2 at best- great with a hand control defense but needs more speed to keep the pressure that a hand control deck needs to suceed.

I agree with Master Q. Phillies are going to be great.

I guess it depends on how your Herod's defense is built.  If you're using the multiple auto-blocks and BTN options available in gold, then Job isn't much of a threat, provided your offense doesn't take forever to win. 

Also, any decent Herod defense is probably using at least a few of the Disciples Sites.  I haven't played against a Job offense yet that used enough Site access to be fast.  Sites always seems to stall them for a while. 

A Job deck will win the long game, with out a doubt.  But you have to be able to make it to the long game first.  That's why I haven't seen a Job deck yet that was better than tier 2.

What auto-blocks are you referring too? The only auto-blocks I can think of for Gold are Egyptian Warden and Egyptian Horses + Wonders Forgotten, neither of which are Herods. Obviously, Herods have Herod's Dungeon as an auto-block, but Job is not only uncapturable, his strength is only 6. Herods only have three commonly used characters that won't give Job initiative immediately (Salome, Herodias, and Herod Antipas) and the two BTN options in Gold (Mask of Fear and KoT) make your opponent's Job's Faith hurt even more.

Site access has never been a huge problem for my Job decks, either because I use plenty of the new sites myself, or because I have 3x Priestly Crown.

I'm not going to say that Job is the best offense, but if I was using a Job deck, I would much rather see my opponent using Herods than a culture with Horses, demons, or Pharisees, which just about sums up every other legitimate defense for T2.

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 06, 2011, 03:49:27 PM

and the two BTN options in Gold (Mask of Fear and KoT) make your opponent's Job's Faith hurt even more.

Job's Faith is CBN.

I know...I mean that your opponent's Job's Faith hurts YOU even more, since KoT will basically always give Job initiative to play it, and Mask of Fear stops any battle winners that you might have been able to keep after discarding three evil cards.

What auto-blocks are you referring too? The only auto-blocks I can think of for Gold are Egyptian Warden and Egyptian Horses + Wonders Forgotten, neither of which are Herods. Obviously, Herods have Herod's Dungeon as an auto-block, but Job is not only uncapturable, his strength is only 6. Herods only have three commonly used characters that won't give Job initiative immediately (Salome, Herodias, and Herod Antipas) and the two BTN options in Gold (Mask of Fear and KoT) make your opponent's Job's Faith hurt even more.

In addition to those three there is also the 7/5 banding Herod who gets initiative against Job, twice.  Since Herod's are limited in character options I think most people use multiple copies of at least some of those cards.  Personally, I also use TAS and KoT in any gold defense.  Any of those initiative characters plus Wonder's Forgotten is an autoblock against Job.  There is also Failed Objective, which I think any decent Herod deck is going to include a couple copies since they already have duplicate characters and it works well against TGT.  Then, there's the one shot block with Herod's Treachery.  That's up to 11 autoblocks, although most probably won't have all 11.

The BTN is only to negate Job's protection so that CM, Herod's Dungeon and Unholy Writ can work.  Every time Job rescues a Lost Soul in T2 he becomes vulnerable to Herod's Dungeon for one use.  Those options give Herod's several more autoblocks against Job.

I'm not saying that Herod's are the best defense against Job by any means.  But if they're built well they certainly aren't weak.

In addition to those three there is also the 7/5 banding Herod who gets initiative against Job, twice.

Herod Antipas is the 7/5 banding Herod...

Personally, I also use TAS and KoT in any gold defense.  Any of those initiative characters plus Wonder's Forgotten is an autoblock against Job.

I remember the first time my Job was blocked by KoT. It was a T2 Multi game, and Chris Bany hadn't played with the Disciples cards very much, so he didn't know about Job's Faith. He learned his lesson pretty quickly. And let's not forget that an initiative character and Wonders Forgotten is an autoblock against everybody, assuming I don't use AotL.

There is also Failed Objective, which I think any decent Herod deck is going to include a couple copies since they already have duplicate characters and it works well against TGT.  Then, there's the one shot block with Herod's Treachery.  That's up to 11 autoblocks, although most probably won't have all 11.

I think I used one FO in my Herods deck (maybe because I only own one...not sure about that though). I also overlooked Herods Treachery, but that card is just awesome in general and will autoblock anyone. But most other defenses have more options for initiative and autoblocks than that.

The BTN is only to negate Job's protection so that CM, Herod's Dungeon and Unholy Writ can work.  Every time Job rescues a Lost Soul in T2 he becomes vulnerable to Herod's Dungeon for one use.  Those options give Herod's several more autoblocks against Job.

They work for a turn, but then Job goes to D&A where he comes back next turn and resets. HD is much more effective against Prophets and Priests, who are primarily males above the strength of 7 with easily negatable capture protection because of HAII.

I'm not saying that Herod's are the best defense against Job by any means.  But if they're built well they certainly aren't weak.

I'm not saying they're weak at all. I'm just saying that there are much better defenses (pretty much any popular T2 defense except possibly Brown) to face Job, and there are other offenses that Herods will do much better against than they will against Job. I was just pointing out that bringing up Job as an example of an offense that Herods excel against seemed odd when they are probably the weakest of common T2 defenses vs. him.

P.S: If you want to play an RTS game where you use a Herods defense and I'll use a Job/Silver offense, I'd be more than happy to put our conflicting theories to the test...

I'm actually starting to like teal/gold...

Silver trumpets x3
Moses wa x3
PoC x3
joshua the high priest x3
shamhuth wa x1
urrim & thummin x2

.... there's a lot you can do with it, especially with how almost every enh played on teal becomes/is CBI or CBN, and then you band in Moses for FBTN....

the only problem with them is that they usually give initiative, allowing your opponent to play first, but they can interrupt with ease

You can easily get initiative in t2 with gold/teal. Seraiah, Ithamar, Ahimaaz for teal, and gold has plenty of hero's around 3 and 4 on both offense and defense, and The Thankful Leper, Good Samaritan, and The Generous Widow.

teal- i suppose, but not with the heroes I'd like to
gold- yea, they get init pretty easy, but i only splash them

If he doesn't I will. 12 pm playground...meet me there.

Sorry, I only like to thrash people with my Job offense once. I'm hoping for a real challenge this time...

You guys would know better than us down here because we havent gotten to play to much.

I have been winning alot though with Disciples/AssyrianControl(Words of Discouragement+Fearfulness)

We have a big GA State this weekend. Any ideas what I should run?