Author Topic: Heretic defense, but what for offense? (Read 4925 times)

Mr.Hiatus · « **on:** December 01, 2010, 12:18:41 AM »

Creeping Deceiver x5
False Teachers x5
Seven Sons of Scevax3

Wolves' in Sheep's Clothing x5
Judas' Plot x3

Torment

Trembling Demon x5

Kingdoms of this World x1
The Darkness x1

Mayhem
CM
Burial
FA
DoN

Also include 10-12 site. I do 10 single color sites, 2 access, maybe three depending on offense. Put all lost souls in sites and include Holy of Holies x 2-3 for your demons. Protect all lost souls and keep healing your heretics, and recurring your demons a few times. Extremely strong defense that stalls but can lose to disciples. So it needs a way around disciples, and it is a small defense so I'm contemplating Garrison x3 and 12 FG x2 with Goliath's Armor x3. Let me know if I over thought anything. I honestly like disciples on offense with this, but what else would pair well this kind of defense? I think it needs to have drawing and quick hitting firepower on offense and also be mono color due to how the defense is built. If you want Uzzah x2-3 would work well with the defense.

adotson85 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2010, 01:13:04 AM »

I am running a crimson defense with a green offense. Haven't played with it yet, but seems like it could do good.

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2010, 10:28:26 AM »

I think a KoT or two could only benefit your defense. Destructive Sin could help protect you from Iamwhatevercovenantdiscardsyourwolves. I tried a similar defense paired with a Disciples offense but I found two major problems.

1) This defense virtually rolls over against a Captain band. (so the 12FG could help)

2) The Disciples offense was much slower that I expected it to be. I suggest using a faster offense with this stall defense.

What OT EE are you discarding to False Teachers? The ones you have listed are all NT I believe.

If you include the black then Simon the Magician (heretic) and JiP or WoS might be good.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2010, 10:32:23 AM »

royalty draws fast. i use them in my type two and i've almost decked put every game i've played.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2010, 01:48:51 PM »

I think a KoT or two could only benefit your defense. Destructive Sin could help protect you from Iamwhatevercovenantdiscardsyourwolves. I tried a similar defense paired with a Disciples offense but I found two major problems.

1) This defense virtually rolls over against a Captain band. (so the 12FG could help)

2) The Disciples offense was much slower that I expected it to be. I suggest using a faster offense with this stall defense.

What OT EE are you discarding to False Teachers? The ones you have listed are all NT I believe.

If you include the black then Simon the Magician (heretic) and JiP or WoS might be good.

I paired the deck with a Disciples as well and was surprised when I found out the same thing, they are not as fast as I thought they were. The lack of enhancements for False Teachers is my bad, I do not own one all 5 should be here today or tomorrow so I used props and was not positive on their SA. I will add a splash, probably black, that includes all OT EE's, thanks for pointing that out early. KoT and Destructive Sin would definitely work, but I traded my DSin's to Clift for his deck, so I got nothing. I haven't playtested it enough to find that the covenant that kills my Wolves' Clothing would probably put a hurting on me, so thanks for that bit of info. If I splash in Simon the M, 12FG and a Garrison then I could do JiP/Wrath and not worry about a Captain band, but I still need a way to negate that covenant, or I could just not put down 2-3 wolves' clothing at a time, just put one down. The disciples offense will go out or get changed, I added more Reach's into mine to speed it up but I'm still not sold on it.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #5 on:** December 03, 2010, 06:38:47 AM »

If Gabe says disciples is slow then it prob is, but i dont believe it till i try it out for myself. In the defence listed above Tyler shows 5 trembling demon so im guesssing thier would be some HoH in thier somewhere for the captain band and the cov would be I am Grace? idk.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #6 on:** December 03, 2010, 12:53:22 PM »

Yeah there are 2 HoH, and I didn't post my Nebby's Pride/Captured Ark I use for my deck/ False Teachers. Also Creeping Deceiver's band to False Teachers so if you have just some numbers on defense you should further stall a Captain band, and Creeping Deceiver's ability CBN, so they can still stall against a Capt, plus HoH/Trembling Demon with SSoS, Creeping Deceivers with heals can stall a band long enough.

CountFount · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2011, 12:18:45 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 03, 2010, 06:38:47 AM

If Gabe says disciples is slow then it prob is, but i dont believe it till i try it out for myself. In the defence listed above Tyler shows 5 trembling demon so im guesssing thier would be some HoH in thier somewhere for the captain band and the cov would be I am Grace? idk.

Gabe said it was slow....but I believe it was just slow enough for him to use it to win T-2 MN Local.

Signed

Bitter Grandpa

Gabe · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2011, 01:39:47 PM »

Quote from: CountFount on March 04, 2011, 12:18:45 PM

Gabe said it was slow....but I believe it was just slow enough for him to use it to win T-2 MN Local.

Signed

Bitter Grandpa

My Disciples + Heretics deck was slow and it got run over by Captain bands. I probably just didn't build it right because I've seen a few successful Heretic defenses since then. But a deck doesn't have to be very fast run over a slow, old guy like yourself, Bitter Grandpa.

I still say that Disciples are slow. If you use Matthew to draw you give your opponent initiative to implement their nasty plan, assuming they have one. It takes a lot of Disciples to make Fishing Boat drawing profitable and then you're just asking for a Darius Decree. If you plan to take advantage of Super Thad you have to wait to draw a bunch of Disciples. Disciples by themselves take time to set up. You have to find another way to speed your deck up like ET + Reach + Reach + Reach + Reach + Reach + Pentecost.

CountFount · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2011, 01:42:37 PM »

Was that a Bus? Ouch!

Illegal draw 16 max

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2011, 02:04:52 PM »

Quote from: CountFount on March 04, 2011, 12:18:45 PM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 03, 2010, 06:38:47 AM
If Gabe says disciples is slow then it prob is, but i dont believe it till i try it out for myself. In the defence listed above Tyler shows 5 trembling demon so im guesssing thier would be some HoH in thier somewhere for the captain band and the cov would be I am Grace? idk.

Gabe said it was slow....but I believe it was just slow enough for him to use it to win T-2 MN Local.

Signed

Bitter Grandpa

It was the Pharisees that made Gabe's deck fast...not the Disciples...

CountFount · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2011, 09:31:08 PM »

What do 'The Guardian' and Gabe know about making decks any way? Have either of you won anything?

JSB23 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2011, 10:45:48 PM »

Crown of thorns + Thad teh Haxzorz = dead defense

Because Thad protects the lost souls from being protected $:-\$

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2011, 02:37:19 AM »

Quote

Crown of thorns + Thad teh Haxzorz = dead defense

Because Thad protects the lost souls from being protected

Quote

Extremely strong defense that stalls but can lose to disciples. So it needs a way around disciples, and it is a small defense so I'm contemplating Garrison x3 and 12 FG x2 with Goliath's Armor x3.

crustpope · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2011, 07:25:06 AM »

Does strong demon (di) work against Thad?

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:57:16 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 07:25:06 AM

Does strong demon (di) work against Thad?

It can for awhile, but not in the long run, because Thaddeus can band to James, Son of Alpheus. (Yay, CBI against a BTN hero!)

Playing against Crown O'Thorns at the T2 Blowout pretty much every evil character lower than a 12 toughness was useless. So, I block with KoT. I play AoCP.

For T2, Thaddeus was truly a mistake.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2011, 09:23:01 AM »

It's obvious the next step is to add "Cannot be protected from" and rather abilities.

(I'm not sure how rather is different than instead, but atleast it's a start)

crustpope · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2011, 09:28:26 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 07, 2011, 08:57:16 AM

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 07:25:06 AM
Does strong demon (di) work against Thad?
It can for awhile, but not in the long run, because Thaddeus can band to James, Son of Alpheus. (Yay, CBI against a BTN hero!)

Playing against Crown O'Thorns at the T2 Blowout pretty much every evil character lower than a 12 toughness was useless. So, I block with KoT. I play AoCP.

For T2, Thaddeus was truly a mistake.

Not sure how that works...

Strong Demon (Di)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 9 / 10 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect from discard and capture abilities on good Enhancements. Cannot be interrupted by a purple card. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Mark 9:18

James, Son of Alphaeus (Di)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate special abilities on Evil Characters (and weapons) with toughness X or less. May band to Thaddeus. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Disciple • Verse: Matthew 10:2-3

So strong Demons ability can be negated by James? that doesnt seem right.

So the only stop against Thaddeus is A philistine with Goliaths Armor.

Question. IS the heros toughness counted with or without any weapon class enhancements?

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2011, 10:11:35 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 09:28:26 AM

Question. IS the heros toughness counted with or without any weapon class enhancements?

Without. Just like it's always worked for Widow.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2011, 10:53:07 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 09:28:26 AM

Strong Demon (Di)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 9 / 10 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect from discard and capture abilities on good Enhancements. Cannot be interrupted by a purple card. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Mark 9:18

James, Son of Alphaeus (Di)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate special abilities on Evil Characters (and weapons) with toughness X or less. May band to Thaddeus. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Disciple • Verse: Matthew 10:2-3

So strong Demons ability can be negated by James? that doesnt seem right.

So the only stop against Thaddeus is A philistine with Goliaths Armor.

Question. IS the heros toughness counted with or without any weapon class enhancements?

James would be preventing Strong Demon in this case.

Josh · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2011, 11:57:16 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 09:28:26 AM

So the only stop against Thaddeus is A philistine with Goliaths Armor.

It would have to be an EC that doesn't fall under Thad's limit. Because Thad can protect EC's from protecting themselves via immunity. So 12FG + Goliath's Armor would be the way to go. (And 12FG would kick Thad out of battle too)

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:00:52 PM »

Personally, I'm going to put a handful of side battles in my deck so I can play some evil territory destruction.

The Guardian · « **Reply #22 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:03:37 PM »

Quote

Because Thad can protect EC's from protecting themselves via immunity.

This was changed. A character cannot be immune to itself and cannot be protected from being immune.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:22:07 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 07, 2011, 10:53:07 AM

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 09:28:26 AM
So strong Demons ability can be negated by James? that doesnt seem right.
James would be preventing Strong Demon in this case.

SomeKittens has it correct.

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 09:28:26 AM

So the only stop against Thaddeus is A philistine with Goliaths Armor.

It doesn't have to be a Philistine.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 07, 2011, 08:57:16 AM

For T2, Thaddeus ~~was truly a mistake~~ is an order of magnitude bigger mistake than Garden Tomb was for T1.

Fixed it.

News:

Author Topic: Heretic defense, but what for offense? (Read 4925 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!