Author Topic: Turtle (Read 3605 times)

Red Wing · « **on:** January 31, 2012, 12:07:21 PM »

Cards in deck: 70
Lost Souls: 9
   Lost Soul (can't be prevented)
   Lost Soul (deck discard)
   Lost Soul (Female Only)
   Lost Soul (N.T. only)
   Lost Soul (Pigs)
   Lost Soul (revealer)
   Lost Soul (Speed Bump)
   Lost Soul (Wanderer)
   Lost Souls (2-line)

Lamb Dominants: 4
   Angel of the Lord
   Grapes of Wrath
   New Jerusalem
   Son of God

Grim Reaper Dominants: 4
   Christian Martyr
   Destruction of Nehushtan
   Falling Away
   Mayhem

Fortresses: 4
   Gate of Samaria
   Goshen
   The Gates of Hell
   Zerubbabel's Temple

Multi-Color Sites: 1
   The Ends of the Earth

Green Sites: 7
   Samaria
   Samaria
   Samaria
   Samaria
   Samaria
   Samaria
   Samaria

Artifacts: 7
   Blue Tassels
   Chariot of Fire
   Holy of Holies
   Lampstand of the Sanctuary
   Magic Charms
   The Bronze Laver
   Unholy Writ

White Covenant Cards: 2
   Covenant With Death (Brown/Pale Green)
   Unknown Nation (Yellow)

Gold Covenant Cards: 1
   I am Healing

Multi-Color Heroes: 1
   Ahimaaz (Teal)

Gold Heroes: 1
   Watchful Servant

Multi-Color Hero Enhancements: 1
   Brass Serpent

Multi color/Orange
Damsel
WS
TD
King Manny
SoT
SWS
Jezebel
Pale Green Evil Characters: 3
   Assyrian Archer
   Assyrian Survivor
   Balaam

Brown Evil Characters: 7
   Gomer
   King Ahab
   King Jeroboam I
   King Joram
   King Nadab
   King Omri
   Uzzah

Multi-Color Evil Enhancements: 2
   Destructive Sin (Orange)
   Worshipping Demons (Orange)

Pale Green Evil Enhancements: 3
   Achan's Sin
   Death of Unrighteous
   Forgotten History

Brown Evil Enhancements: 6
   Breaking Jerusalem's Wall
   Gibeonite Trickery
   Haman's Plot
   Image of Jealousy
   Korah's Rebellion
   Land Purchase

SomeKittens · « **Reply #1 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:04:36 PM »

Your offense is too small. WS needs more backup, Goshen is nice, and you need at least two more heroes so your CoF will actually trigger. WS gets shut down by too many commonly-played cards to be as good as it was last year.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:40:48 PM »

Defense lacks staying power. If Manasseh gets killed you have no long-term blocking capabilities.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:41:35 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 31, 2012, 01:04:36 PM

Your offense is too small. WS needs more backup, Goshen is nice, and you need at least two more heroes so your CoF will actually trigger. WS gets shut down by too many commonly-played cards to be as good as it was last year.

Such as?

Red Wing · « **Reply #4 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:45:55 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on January 31, 2012, 01:12:55 PM

You only need 9 LS for a 70 card deck.

Ahh true. Will update.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:10:30 PM »

Getting to the actual deck, I see a few problems.

A. Size-Speed=68. You have 1 search card. The deck is ripe to get hit with a Mayhem and never recover.
B. WS Protection. What happens when after battle they CM you in a territory? You lose. You need a Lampstand and preferably a temple.
C. Guardian. Why do you need it?
D. Confusion. Do you really think you're going to draw and be able to play it before they get their SoG.
E. What are you going to play off of Siege Army? He's not an auto-block, and he certainly won't get inish. That's basically giving them a soul.
F. Healing redundancy. First off, you don't have any other characters to play them on, and secondly, if you put WS down without protection, you've probably lost. You only need to stop a CM once, any other time he should be fine.
G. Soul access. You're probably okay, but if they have Female only and */4, you've lost.
H. Ways to take out access sites. Korah's Rebellion and Achan's Sin are favorites.
I. King Saul? Lolwut? Try a King Joram if you want another Israelite King.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:24:24 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on January 31, 2012, 01:41:35 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 31, 2012, 01:04:36 PM
Your offense is too small. WS needs more backup, Goshen is nice, and you need at least two more heroes so your CoF will actually trigger. WS gets shut down by too many commonly-played cards to be as good as it was last year.
Such as?

CoM and CwD. Charms is a problem as well, I've seen that kicking around. Beheaded is a problem with all the Egyptians running around, but I don't think that sees as much play and can be healed from. The dark horse here is Dungeon of Malachi.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:30:50 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 31, 2012, 02:24:24 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on January 31, 2012, 01:41:35 PM
Quote from: SomeKittens on January 31, 2012, 01:04:36 PM
Your offense is too small. WS needs more backup, Goshen is nice, and you need at least two more heroes so your CoF will actually trigger. WS gets shut down by too many commonly-played cards to be as good as it was last year.
Such as?
CoM and CwD. Charms is a problem as well, I've seen that kicking around. Beheaded is a problem with all the Egyptians running around, but I don't think that sees as much play and can be healed from. The dark horse here is Dungeon of Malachi.

CwD is the only real concern, and I don't think it'll see as much play in the top tables (and you should be playing a speed deck first round). Charms can be taken out in the territory with GoS or AotL. I haven't seen any CoM since CwD has been out. Beheaded is legit, but can be prepared for if done properly (leaving Ahimaaz in Goshen until you need him with Lampy up). Dungeon is lulzy, but Blue Tassels would probably do the trick.

So long as you keep Watchful Servant in your hand until you have Goshen, you should be fine. After that, you need Lampy, Temple, Ahimaaz, Chariot, and Capture protection, and you're fine. Except from CwD.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:36:53 PM »

Exactly. So he needs more than a three-card offense. I'm currently experimenting with small offenses, but 3 won't work.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:41:36 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 31, 2012, 02:36:53 PM

Exactly. So he needs more than a three-card offense. I'm currently experimenting with small offenses, but 3 won't work.

I agree. My main point was that WS can still be just as effective this year, primarily because nobody's expecting it this year, so you really don't need all the Golgotha/CP counters.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #10 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:44:49 PM »

Meh. Fine, you've convinced me. I'll add him to the roster of small offenses I'm testing.

Red Wing · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2012, 04:47:50 PM »

Updated.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2012, 05:07:42 PM »

Use Herod's Temple instead of Z's Temple. It can help your defense.

Drop the healing cards. You don't need them with Lampstand/HT/Chariot/Ahimaaz. You'll be in and out of battle before they can do anything about it.

Nameless · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2012, 05:17:55 PM »

You should put in something to kill Golgotha.

Red · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2012, 09:47:32 PM »

You do realize WS is protected from capture by his ability right?

Red Wing · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2012, 09:48:28 PM »

Quote from: Red on February 01, 2012, 09:47:32 PM

You do realize WS is protected from capture by his ability right?

Yes, but it's negate-able.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** February 01, 2012, 09:58:46 PM »

The far bigger problem would be your opponent dropping Damsel, activating Charms, rescuing, and capturing WS. And then playing SoG/NJ with a Guardian so you can't get him back.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 01, 2012, 09:58:46 PM

The far bigger problem would be your opponent dropping Damsel, activating Charms, rescuing, and capturing WS. And then playing SoG/NJ with a Guardian so you can't get him back.

This is the main reason I don't view Watchful Servant decks as overly viable.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:21:30 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 01, 2012, 09:58:46 PM
The far bigger problem would be your opponent dropping Damsel, activating Charms, rescuing, and capturing WS. And then playing SoG/NJ with a Guardian so you can't get him back.

This is the main reason I don't view Watchful Servant decks as overly viable.

That's why Angel of the Lord is in there.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:51:55 AM »

Even so; once someone figures out it's a Watchful Servant deck, there are a few different ways to get around it. I pride myself on the fact that, to date, I've never lost against one, though admittedly, none of the ones I faced were at major tournaments. I merely think that if you're going to go for a full-sized turtle deck at 70 cards, Isaiah or a small TGT will be much more effective and less risky.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:46:17 AM »

I think the problem that turtle decks have is that the top decks (not just because they are top, but by there very structure) are the decks that will have the best success at beating turtle.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:49:56 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 02, 2012, 11:46:17 AM

I think the problem that turtle decks have is that the top decks (not just because they are top, but by there very structure) are the decks that will have the best success at beating turtle.

Not necessarily. Israelite Royalty is an extremely effective anti-meta, with cards like Broken Cisterns, Plagued with Diseases, and of course, Samarias. They have the two best heroes in the game (Gomer and Uzzah), the ability to play first against OT heroes (Jeering Youth) and anyone (Jezebel banded to King Ahab) and the best evil enhancement in T1 (Haman's Plot). Add recursion of enhancements, a D4 enhancement, and a set-aside that reduces someone 0/2 per turn, and you have an extremely solid anti-meta if you design the deck that way. The problem remains though, that off of a good draw, Sam decks can still set up and get three souls before IR gets set up, and Gardensciples don't get hit that hard by it at all.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2012, 12:00:40 PM »

I didn't mean the defenses were not anti-meta.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2012, 12:02:34 PM »

Like you said, it's not hard for Gardenciples or Sam to beat a well-built anti-meta deck. The win percentage is too low for it to be truly effective.

/not that it doesn't stop me from trying...

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2012, 12:42:36 PM »

The Nats winning deck will probably have some anti-meta thrown in, however. All the top decks get hit by the same five cards or so, which is a big issue, and enables partial anti-meta quite a bit.

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Author Topic: Turtle (Read 3605 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

TheHobbit13

Chronic Apathy

TheHobbit13

Chronic Apathy