Author Topic: Tier Lists (T1) (Read 36386 times)

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #150 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:14:00 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 07, 2011, 12:55:17 PM

Possibly, but I think that would send the wrong message in comparative power. Since there are no S defenses, people will see a list of 2 A's and a bunch of B's and think that the B's match up in power with the defensive B's, when actually they're on the same level as the defensive A's.

Then that's their problem. They're two separate tier lists.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #151 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:18:04 PM »

Tier lists should never be judged against each other- even in something like this. Tiers should be judged only against themselves, if that makes sense. Also, there's no way Egyptians are anything higher than B tier on defense. Genyptians are the only thing even remotely viable right now (though I am going to be playing around with deck discard soon), and they're only good when paired with Genesis. Even then, they don't function much as a defense as much as they do support for the offense.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #152 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:18:38 PM »

I disagree with that sentiment. The idea of tier lists is to help newer players get their bearings, since established players should be able to figure out what's good and what's not on their own. Why make things complicated, misleading, and confusing instead of just having 2 strats in the S tier instead of 1?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #153 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:28:32 PM »

Tier lists are fundamentally flawed in CCGs, because the way tiers are measured is how good something is when it's played to it's absolute highest potential. In the case of Redemption, this means that absolutely every draw goes absolutely perfectly. Because of the way this works, the decision of a tier list would come down entirely to a coin flip, because both strategies would be drawing perfect offense to take down any defense their opponent might have (with the approach that Rob has taken with Redemption, a perfect offense will trounce a perfect defense every time). Both players would draw all seven of their Lost Souls from the start, in hopes of getting the first turn. Whoever has that first turn then, would be guaranteed the win. This probably isn't a universal truth, but it would require very extensive testing to prove me wrong on this one.

The point I'm trying to make here is that, for the purposes of Redemption, traditional tier lists simply will not work. As such, I support either larger tiers in the A and B sections, or more tiers in general (which is, in my opinion, the better option).

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #154 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:37:31 PM »

Idk if it's about every draw going perfectly. Samuel and Genesis are so good in part because you can be almost guaranteed the centerpiece of the deck in the first two rounds. 10% of a Samuel deck generates a Samuel, and slightly more of a Genesis deck generates a Joseph. Even if your draw was pretty lousy with Samuel, the odds of you drawing neither Samuel, Professor Oak, Angelica's Secret, or W3 pretty soon are minimal, especially since the deck has a lot of other drawing. In Genesis, all you need is Joseph, Rachel, Angel at Shur, Answer to Prayer, Numerous as the Stars, or Creation of the World with Abel.

So it's not just about perfect draws v. perfect draws, but also how likely you are to get what you need statistically.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #155 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:43:30 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 07, 2011, 01:37:31 PM

Idk if it's about every draw going perfectly. Samuel and Genesis are so good in part because you can be almost guaranteed the centerpiece of the deck in the first two rounds. 10% of a Samuel deck generates a Samuel, and slightly more of a Genesis deck generates a Joseph. Even if your draw was pretty lousy with Samuel, the odds of you drawing neither Samuel, Professor Oak, Angelica's Secret, or W3 pretty soon are minimal, especially since the deck has a lot of other drawing. In Genesis, all you need is Joseph, Rachel, Angel at Shur, Answer to Prayer, Numerous as the Stars, or Creation of the World with Abel.

So it's not just about perfect draws v. perfect draws, but also how likely you are to get what you need statistically.

What I described is the way traditional tiers are set up. In Brawl for instance, Meta Knight is the top tier because when played to his absolute full potential, he can beat all but two other characters in that game also played to their full potential. However, this approach isn't feasible in Redemption, so we're forced to take a different approach, which is what you described.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #156 on:** September 09, 2011, 01:08:52 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 07, 2011, 01:37:31 PM

Idk if it's about every draw going perfectly. Samuel and Genesis are so good in part because you can be almost guaranteed the centerpiece of the deck in the first two rounds. 10% of a Samuel deck generates a Samuel, and slightly more of a Genesis deck generates a Joseph. Even if your draw was pretty lousy with Samuel, the odds of you drawing neither Samuel, Professor Oak, Angelica's Secret, or W3 pretty soon are minimal, especially since the deck has a lot of other drawing. In Genesis, all you need is Joseph, Rachel, Angel at Shur, Answer to Prayer, Numerous as the Stars, or Creation of the World with Abel.

So it's not just about perfect draws v. perfect draws, but also how likely you are to get what you need statistically.

I feel like your Sam deck is very different from mine.... That or I'm misunderstanding what your names are... Actually, I think I got all but the last - Wheel within a Wheel? is that W3?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #157 on:** September 09, 2011, 02:09:00 AM »

Yep. My Sam deck will likely change now that everybody realized Samuel negates TToD's draw ability.

Master KChief · « **Reply #158 on:** September 09, 2011, 02:30:24 AM »

he doesnt negate the draw, he negates the play. even without the play off ttod, there are still plenty of options available to the combo's brigades to interrupt/battle winner. and ttod is still good support to the kings in the deck.

lightningninja · « **Reply #159 on:** September 10, 2011, 01:06:08 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 09, 2011, 02:09:00 AM

Yep. My Sam deck will likely change now that everybody realized Samuel negates TToD's draw ability.

How does he negate either?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #160 on:** September 10, 2011, 02:49:04 AM »

Samuel (RA2)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)

This is to avoid Hidden Treasures abuse.

Bryon · « **Reply #161 on:** September 10, 2011, 03:28:01 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 10, 2011, 02:49:04 AM

Samuel (RA2)

Type: Hero Char. Brigade: Green/Yellow Ability: 4 / 4 Class: None Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)

This is to avoid Hidden Treasures abuse.

Correct. For example, Hidden Treasures + Samson's Sacrifice. A gold/green Deborah would have the same issue. Maybe she will just negate artifacts?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #162 on:** September 10, 2011, 11:20:43 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on September 10, 2011, 03:28:01 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 10, 2011, 02:49:04 AM
Samuel (RA2)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)

This is to avoid Hidden Treasures abuse.
Correct. For example, Hidden Treasures + Samson's Sacrifice.

Or you could just use Holy of Holies (in a temple) along with these two...

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #163 on:** September 10, 2011, 11:21:34 AM »

Or maybe we let the combo work? It's pretty bam, but it loses you a turn of rescuing.

HoH wouldn't work because Sam is CBN.

Gabe · « **Reply #164 on:** September 10, 2011, 11:30:39 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 10, 2011, 11:21:34 AM

HoH wouldn't work because Sam is CBN.

Deborah probably will have CBN too since we try to put CBN on about every green Hero printed in recent history.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #165 on:** September 10, 2011, 11:31:19 AM »

My proposed tier list.

S Tier
Genesis
Samuel

A Tier
TGT
Red/Teal
Red/Purple
Isaiah
Disciples

B Tier
Prophets
FBTNB
Royalty
Choose the Blocker
N.T. Prophets

C Tier
Watchful Servant
Teal
Job

D Tier
Silver
Luke

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #166 on:** September 10, 2011, 11:53:35 AM »

The only issue I have with that is that Ezekiel is actually more successful in my experience.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #167 on:** September 10, 2011, 12:18:52 PM »

My only problem with Zeke is that it's much, much more based around a specific defense (Babs) than Isaiah is around Assyrians.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #168 on:** September 10, 2011, 04:24:13 PM »

True, but it's the defense you'd want it to be based around. Babs make a nuisance of themselves when there are side-battles to be had.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #169 on:** September 10, 2011, 05:12:20 PM »

No argument here. However, I'm inclined to say Isaiah is then better as a whole, because it's slightly more versatile. You can't really use a Zeke deck with anything but Babylonians, which makes it lose a point in my mind. -shrug-

SomeKittens · « **Reply #170 on:** September 10, 2011, 07:26:19 PM »

I don't think this is really about versatility, but raw power. Zeke wins more? He's higher on the list. Though a note should be added about the defense.

pilgrim14 · « **Reply #171 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:02:53 PM »

I think that Isiah is better because I used him with Seraph and Call, and I just smashed through a Nats winning defence without any enhancments.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #172 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:09:18 PM »

The meta's shifted a lot, I don't think we should judge offenses by their ability to beat last year's defense.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #173 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:14:58 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 10, 2011, 07:26:19 PM

I don't think this is really about versatility, but raw power. Zeke wins more? He's higher on the list. Though a note should be added about the defense.

In terms of raw power, Isaiah is better, because that's an offense that can be run without requiring a specific defense to be good. I'm still not convinced that Zeke IS better than Isaiah. It's entirely possible that Zeke simply fits Pol's play style better, which is why he wins more with him.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #174 on:** September 11, 2011, 12:35:49 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 10, 2011, 07:26:19 PM

I don't think this is really about versatility, but raw power. Zeke wins more? He's higher on the list.

Some of it is versatility. A more versatile offense is more likely to be able to take down a range of defense. An offense that can use multiple defenses with it is also likely to be in a stronger deck, so it's the better option.

I really can't comment on which is better though. Isaiah wins in booster draft, hands down.

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Author Topic: Tier Lists (T1) (Read 36386 times)

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk