Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 1 Deck Advice => Topic started by: Warrior_Monk on May 05, 2011, 07:49:17 PM
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In light of Cookie Monster's separate threads asking basically the same thing for different defenses, I thought it'd be interesting to make a tier list. We can update it every year. I'll post the initial one, and if people want change I can edit it. If you have anything that I'm missing, please let me know and I'll try to fit it in, but only if they're realistically there. A "King of Israel" defense would absolutely fail (Pre-RoA.2) because they have no central brigade or enhancements, etc.
Keep these rules in mind:
1. The tier list is designed to place the most efficient defenses/offenses at the top. This means that being able to hold out for the longest time possible for the least number of card investments or being able to rescue 5 souls as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of card investment. Deck slots are the biggest factor. The less slots, the better if two competing offenses/defenses have the same amount of power.
2. Neutral card slots must be considered. This means that when we consider Z temple priests for example, we take into account that all Z temple decks would run the temple + 2-4 temple artifacts or that disciples will almost always run some sort of anti-capture artifacts. The less neutral slots the better, ideally there being none.
3. The more versatile, the better. The ability to use multiple veins of battlewinners (shuffle, discard, set aside, etc) is desired.
4. Defenses shall not be considered to help offenses, and offenses shall not be considered to help defenses. That means Zeb/WS is not the best offense in the game (and shall not be considered for tiering due to the difficulties in doing so. Similarly for defenseless).
5. The tier list is comprised to determine the strength in the T1 2-P format in a tournament setting. This means that 100+ variants are not an argument for success (looking at you Job), unless proof of success has been shown.
6. In order to move the tier list, one must provide valid arguments to support claims in line with the above rules. If someone (even Gabe of similar Nats Champs and highly respected players like Pol) simply says "Disciples should be A", it shall not be done until legitimate reasons are presented (bonus points for comparisons with offences that would be displaced by any change in tier positioning).
Offense
A Tier
Samuel (Red/Purple)
TGT
Samuel (Teal/Green/Gold)
Genesis
Gardenciples
Disciples
B Tier
Prophets (Silver/Green)
Mono Red
Judges
C Tier
Royalty
Silver
Defense
A Tier
Egyptian
Pharisee
Babylonian
Standalone
B Tier
Pale Green (Assyrian, primarily)
Israelite Kings
Canaanite
Philistine
C Tier
Heretics
Saducees
Other unique ideas (they're probably bad ones)
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What about Non-biased responses in all caps?
or
Biased responses with no caps? ;)
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If you are playing a good brown defense you will be incorporating kings of Judah and persians. I have not scene anybody play straight kings of Judah or persians. Also the good phillies are standalones. Phillies by them selves should be tier c (maybe until Goliath comes out), maybe B. props for putting together a list.
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I would do Magicians/Orange and Magicians/Brown seperately and then have Orange/Black.
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What about the different gametypes?
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yo i ws putting together a deck and i was like playa what should i make. so here i browser the forum looking 4 wat 2 make an i c this and i was like yeaaaah son ima take the a tier and win nats ya dig? but you has romans in da bottom so u not good. they should be top tier cuz nero wins games
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A Tier
Pharisees - Agreed
Standalones - Agreed
Black Philistines - Probably when Goliath comes out
Orange Banding and Friends - Idk what this means. How is it different from Standalones?
B Tier
Orange Brigade - Agreed
Magicians and Friends - Should be 3rd tier at most.
Brown Brigade - 1st tier for sure
Herods - 1st tier
C Tier
Romans - 2nd tier at least
Babylonians - Agreed
Kings of Judah - That's Brown
Egyptians - 4th Tier
D Tier
Syrians - Agreed
Heretics - 3rd tier
Assyrians - Agreed
Sadducees - Agreed
This is for T1 obviously.
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I've played Persians, and they should be in 3rd tier. Also thank you ring wraith for posting this, it is very usefull ;)
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Doing standard tiers, if someone decides it offends them I'll edit it. Keep in mind though that I'm not the first person to make these up, and these are the standards for any kind of list like this. This is all imo, naturally.
Edit:
Also guys, please keep in mind that the concept of tiers is based entirely around what the best theme is if played to their full potential. It's actually very hard to create a tier list for this sort of thing because of all the variables that go into it.
Best Tier:
Magicians and Brown
Philistines
Great Tier:
Magicians and Orange
Standalone
Good Tier:
Pharisees
Kings of Judah/Persians
Herods
Average Tier:
Romans
Egyptians
Babylonians
Bad Tier:
Egyptians
Heretics
Sure Not Good Tier:
Syrians
Assyrians
Sadducees
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Initial problem with defensive tier list: Standalones aren't the best defense, they are the defense in the best decks.
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A slightly modified but still heavily biased tier list is up. Once we settle on which tiers each should be in, we can rank them within their tiers. Standalones took a big hit. Orange/Black moved way up because I love Orange/Black. Eventually, I'll post a tier list for Good as well.
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This list is bogus and inaccurate.
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This list is genuine and accurate.
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Standalones should be in the A Tier.
Herods should be in the A Tier.
Defenseless should be in the B Tier.
Any Orange defense that has more than KoT(pri) in it should be no higher than the B Tier, haha.
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meta knight, snake, diddy kong. that is all.
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Updated again. I like responses like Pol's and Daniel TS Red, because it's easy to see where you guys disagree with the list. Also, keep in mind that these are the best defenses, so defenseless won't be on the list because it's not a defense. It's also why I have Standalones in B Tier. They really aren't that great for stopping rescues or for crippling a player, but they stall for a few turns (similar with Pharisees, who I'm hesitant to have in the A Tier).
I'm working on an offensive tier list now. Again, once we have the correct defenses in the correct tiers, we can nitpick who should be above who.
Goliath counts. Laban counts. Daniel does not count. This is for the entire year, so if you can use it at a tournament this year, it should be included with the defense. Especially because Nationals is coming up.
Updated with Offensive Tier List. This is severely biased on the current meta, so please help me fix it.
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I'll give you the defenseless not being included, but honestly the less defense in a deck the better. So full defenses actually hurt you more than they help, that's why standalones should be in the A Tier.
p.s. It's better to go heavy defense or heavy offense. Balanced decks ( which I like ) are a disadvantage to the player that uses them.
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I'll give you the defenseless not being included, but honestly the less defense in a deck the better. So full defenses actually hurt you more than they help, that's why standalones should be in the A Tier.
This is a matter of opinion. Some of the best decks I've seen are more heavily defense based. Not all decks have to be based around speed.
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I'll make my own tier list for offense/tonight and post it. Before we argue over any of this. I'd also like to present some rules:
1. The tier list is designed to place the most efficient defences/offences at the top. This means that being able to hold out for the longest time possible for the least number of card investments or being able to rescue 5 souls as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of card investment. Deck slots are the biggest factor. The less slots, the better if two competing offences/defences have the same amount of power.
2. Neutral card slots must be considered. This means that when we consider Z temple priests for example, we take into account that all Z temple decks would run the temple + 2-4 temple artifacts or that disciples will almost always run some sort of anti-capture artifacts. The less neutral slots the better, ideally there being none.
3. The more versatile, the better. The ability to use multiple veins of battlewinners (shuffle, discard, set aside, etc) is desired.
4. Defenses shall not be considered to help offenses, and offenses shall not be considered to help defenses. That means Zeb/WS is not the best offense in the game (and shall not be considered for tiering due to the difficulties in doing so. Similarly for defenceless).
5. The tier list is comprised to determine the strength in the T1 2-P format in a tournament setting. This means that 100+ variants are not an argument for success (looking at you Job), unless proof of success has been shown.
6. In order to move the tier list, one must provide valid arguments to support claims in line with the above rules. If someone (even Gabe of similar Nats Champs and highly respected players like Pol) simply says "Disciples should be A", it shall not be done until legitimate reasons are presented (bonus points for comparisons with offences that would be displaced by any change in tier positioning).
I based this rules on my experience after years (yes, years) of debating tiers for the Fire Emblem series of games. If you have any problems with them or anything to add, let me know, but otherwise, I think we should follow these concepts.
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HolyGrail FTW!
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...What does that have to do with anything?
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4. Defenses shall not be considered to help offenses, and offenses shall not be considered to help defenses. That means Zeb/WS is not the best offense in the game (and shall not be considered for tiering due to the difficulties in doing so. Similarly for defenceless).
This one should be tossed out. When building a deck, you can't just build an offense or defense, you have to have the other in mind always.
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This isn't necessarily for deck building. If it was, I would do offense/defense pairings as a tier list.
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4. Defenses shall not be considered to help offenses, and offenses shall not be considered to help defenses. That means Zeb/WS is not the best offense in the game (and shall not be considered for tiering due to the difficulties in doing so. Similarly for defenceless).
This one should be tossed out. When building a deck, you can't just build an offense or defense, you have to have the other in mind always.
Funny, seemed to work for Gabe ;)
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Well when you build offenses that can't be stopped like his, you're basically just tossing in ECs and EEs to make the deck count go up to 50 cards to make it a legal deck. ;D
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4. Defenses shall not be considered to help offenses, and offenses shall not be considered to help defenses. That means Zeb/WS is not the best offense in the game (and shall not be considered for tiering due to the difficulties in doing so. Similarly for defenceless).
This one should be tossed out. When building a deck, you can't just build an offense or defense, you have to have the other in mind always.
While your point is true, this isn't a deck ranking list. This is a distinct offense and defence tier listing.
A great example is Luke heroes. When you throw out defences, they are pretty terrible. They help the opponent speed through the deck and have little to do against demons. If you were to consider defences in tiering them, suddenly they shoot up do to abomination of desolation. Does that make them a good offense?
No, it simply makes them a good deck when variables are perfect. The point of a tier listing is that, when all else is equal (and by equal, I mean neutral), offense A is better than offense B. Thus, in order to maintain the integrity of the tier list, defense must be thrown out for offense and vice versa.
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I see what you're saying. I guess a Tier List like this doesn't have a lot of value then. Most people would want a list of top offenses and top defenses for deckbuilding. If you setup rules on how you rank things, then you're getting "top" offenses and "top" defenses that are not even close to the top.
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I see what you're saying. I guess a Tier List like this doesn't have a lot of value then. Most people would want a list of top offenses and top defenses for deckbuilding. If you setup rules on how you rank things, then you're getting "top" offenses and "top" defenses that are not going to be in any winning decks. You'll end up with single color offenses and defenses that require no support that will end up being the highest ranked, but in real games will be easily destroyed.
Disciples and TGT are easily destroyed? There are very few good combined strategy decks, other than A-Bomb. Hand discard and deck discard have been tried, but for the most part will fail (at least this year). Heavy offense has been the most successful, and heavy defense has met with some success, although usually it's a combined strategy deck. I started this thread because cookie monster wanted to know how good individual defenses were. This created an easy way to do it.
I'm willing to start a combined deck list too, but other than A-Bomb, Deck Discard, and Hand Discard, I can't really think of anything. Disciples/Pharisees are just taking the best offense and putting a small defense with it, so it's not really a combined deck strategy.
And the list includes mixes of brigades, although only to help the strategy.
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It doesn't have a lot of value either way, the good players know what is good, the new players know what they are playing is "good". The only way players can be convinced of what is the best or not is by playing. Not by reading a tier list. With that being said it is certainly fun to talk about so go for it! :)
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I agree with Hobbit, but I'll shut up for a bit and see how the list works out. After that I'll try to some of the top tier defenses and judge for myself. I think you should post a decklist of these actual defenses though. If you're going to say A is better than B because it uses less support, we should be able to see the decklists and say, yeah, they're right.
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We will do that once we get to the nitpicking of determining which is better than which within tiers.
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I see no hero-less that makes me sad.
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I thought about including it in the offensive strategy, but it's really not an offense/defense, it's a deck type that can be found in tons of different versions. Or used to be found...
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perhaps an archetypal decklist. Cards that should be included, and some other options if one wishes to expand.
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perhaps an archetypal decklist. Cards that should be included, and some other options if one wishes to expand.
This and DTSR's post are much broader and bigger ideas. Once we get a tier more solid, this is definately something to think about expanding to.
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So is this the part were we argue to death over tier seeds? If so I am in
Corrections
A Tier
Disciples- yeah
White TGT- agreed
Gardenciples
Disciples/Red- Disciples Red is B or C tier, Very few people play, it only slows down DI
Disciples/Blue- Really not a big difference, I would lump di red and di blue in to straight di
White/Purple TGT This year white purple tgt is garden disciples
White/Gold TGT There is really no such thing
B Tier
Fight by the Numbers Banding- A tier
Job- C or D tier
Teal Brigade agreed
Prophets- I would argue tier 1
Choose the Blocker- C tier
Luke- D tier
Fight by the Numbers- non existent
Old School Speed- nonexistent
C Tier
Genesis- D tier
Judges- D tier
D Tier
Red- agreed
Angels Agreed
A Tier
Pharisees- yeah
Black Philistines- B tier
Brown Brigade- sure
Orange/Black- No such thing really
Herods- Agreed, only because it is played alot, personally I would say B, but then again you have to look at all the other defenses.
B Tier
Magicians/Brown
Standalones- A tier by Olijars criteria
Orange- C tier
Romans- C tier with all the di out there
C Tier
Magicians/Orange
Babylonians- B tier
Heretics- D tier
Egyptians- Agreed
D Tier
Syrians
Assyrians
Sadducees
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Disciples/Red- Disciples Red is B or C tier, Very few people play, it only slows down DI
Disciples/Red is B or C tier? I guess T1 Multi is always a fluke, but Andrew FTW.
But since I should do this unbiasedly, I'll move it down.
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FbtN should be added to both lists. I think the Genesis offense should be in tier A, at least tier B.
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A Tier
Disciples - Disciples are a top tier offense purely on Thaddeus. All his other friends are virtually sideshows. While they are large, fishing boat virtually mitigates that issue.
White TGT - This is still the most versatile offense in the game. It can be paired with almost anything and be successful, and thus, deserves to be top tier.
NT Prophets - Assuming well splashed silver, this offense packs a lot of power simply by neutralizing common battlewinners such as discard or the capture (although the offense is hurt by it being focused on one or two heroes). The added aid of Hidden Treasures really pushes them into the top tier (especially considering the relative small size compared to normal bruising offense).
B Tier
Z Temple - Z Temple remains a steady rock at the top of tier lists. It has great protection from almost every good battlewinner, strong banding (including one character that bumps all Z temple priests 3/3) and several awesome CBN/CBI combos. It would almost certainly be top tier if it wasn't unworldy huge.
Choose the Blocker - CtB is the ultimate anti-meta offense. With little room for a hard counter, most decks don't both to counter CtB and instead assume that they can deal with one or two CtBs a game with dominants. When used as a main strategy, CtB can devastate unprepared decks.
Fight by the Numbers Banding - This is a great offense, but it really suffers from a lack of versatility and from being easily countered by one of the most common defenses, Herods (and Philistines, to a lesser extent).
Teal/Red – Teal and Red in combination provide a good balance of banding, strong enhancements, and protection (if desired), but really suffer from the classic problem is simply being too big to fit into a balanced deck (which is ideal in order to mitigate bad draws).
Old School Speed - Old School speed is a strong offense because it provides a nice balance of virtually every other strategy while maintaining speed. However, with the advent of cards like Herod's Temple really upping defensive stayability, Old school speed doesn't really have the oomph of other similar sized offenses.
C Tier
Fight by the Numbers – Fight by the numbers has suffered from over-counter syndrome. Formerly a great offense, it has fallen drastically due to many counters now being printed have CBP/CBN status, as well several harder counters being produced. It is also thoroughly outclassed by its cousin FBTN-banding version.
Job – Job is a great offense. The real problem with Job is that he is slow. Even though he has enough power, he almost is forced to be used with a large defense due to his slow nature. A bottom 10 card Job could easily lose you the game in a tournament.
Red – Red is a great offense that has a lot of options (especially when one is willing to splash in either blue or green). With enhancements designed to target weaknesses of FBTN-banding, a heavy Red deck serves as an anti-counter version of a FBTN-banding deck. Unfortunately, it really can’t do much else.
OT Prophets -A former dominant offense, OT Prophets have really felt the hurt of Nazereth tech in many competetive decks. Because the best battlewinners for prophets of the OT are almost exclusively shuffles, this offense is practically stopped cold by a quick drawn Nazereth.
Genesis – Genesis has solid battlewinners, strong banding, and unique abilities. Unfortunately, it suffers from being MASSIVE (practically bigger than Disciples) for not enough power (or speed). While it can win games, almost every other offense can win games at the size Genesis virtually requires you to play at.
Luke/John Gold - LJ Gold is a strategy overly dependant on using certain defensive cards in the same deck. This essentially creates 3/4 before you even put any cards into the deck, and as such, LJ isn't that good of an offense because it doesn't have a ton of power, and it has zero versatility. If you have played one LJ deck, you have basically played them all.
D Tier
Teal/Gold – Teal Gold is a strategy that seems to be promoted by cards in print, but by combining them, both offenses suffer, and very little can be done. The only thing saving this offense is how awesome Aaron + Moses is.
Judges – Judges are that offense that you always think will do really great, but comes out just meh. While the pieces are there with powerful enhancements and neat abilities such as Ehud, Judges simply don’t have enough substance to compete with other deck types.
Angels – Angels are simply not built to be played as an exclusive strategy. Because most strong silver cards involve other brigades, most decks use silver for seasoning, and never as the main ingredient.
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Excellent tier list and analysis, Alex. I agree entirely.
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Excellent tier list and analysis, Alex. I agree entirely.
Wow. I'm surprised you didn't have any issues with it anywhere.
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Other than the fact that you're missing old school speed (which absolutely still does exist), I agree entirely with Alex's assessment.
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If the Teal Gold is N.T. Gold I agree completely but I feel like a Z-Temple Judges would run very well if built correctly.
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Very nicely done Alex. I believe that disciples would still be #1 even if Thad was banned.
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Wow. So my updated list is basically Olijar's tier list, considering it's been fourthed, and I agree with it for the most part. I still have Watchful Servant in the B Tier, mainly because it's small and once it gets ready, it's really hard to stop. Luke is also in there.
I think we should now start the nitpicking within tiers. Beginning with the A Tier for offense.
I think White TGT should be the top, since it has enough fire power to actually win games, and it's generally a bit smaller than Disciples. It also gives options for creativity, and if your opponent uses a standalone defense (which is still pretty popular), you win without needing to play an enhancement.
Disciples should be next, since it's really fast and really hard to stop once it gets going. It's only problem is it doesn't have much firepower, and a good size defense should be able to shut it down. They're versatile if you use some of the apostles disciples, giving them a bit more power. Also, Thaddeus.
N.T. Prophets are mainly good because they're so small. They aren't very fast, but they can pack quite a punch. They have recursion if you use Gabe (Di), and if you put in Micah. Also, Hidden Treasures can rip a part a defense. Standalone and Pharisees don't stand a chance, since HT can pick off the few Pharisee enhancements, and will often include angels, which can break through Balaam's Disobedience. Standalone gets shut down by Simeon + Anna, and Two Bears is vicious.
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If the Teal Gold is N.T. Gold I agree completely but I feel like a Z-Temple Judges would run very well if built correctly.
They aren't.
Wow. So my updated list is basically Olijar's tier list, considering it's been fourthed, and I agree with it for the most part. I still have Watchful Servant in the B Tier, mainly because it's small and once it gets ready, it's really hard to stop. Luke is also in there.
If you want to tier WS (which I intentionally ignored), I would suggest tiering him into his own tier because he is the best offense in the game, assumign you have a good defense and you don't time out. He's very much an exception to a rule. Also, I added Luke into my C tier. I almost put it into D tier. Frankly speaking, I think it stinks. Only because others think it is good did I put it into C. I hate offenses that require a certain defense and speed up the opponent.
I think we should now start the nitpicking within tiers. Beginning with the A Tier for offense.
I tried to order mine close to what I would have if I was ranking them numerically.
I think White TGT should be the top, since it has enough fire power to actually win games, and it's generally a bit smaller than Disciples. It also gives options for creativity, and if your opponent uses a standalone defense (which is still pretty popular), you win without needing to play an enhancement.
Disciples should be next, since it's really fast and really hard to stop once it gets going. It's only problem is it doesn't have much firepower, and a good size defense should be able to shut it down. They're versatile if you use some of the apostles disciples, giving them a bit more power. Also, Thaddeus.
I second that TGT is the best offense. Unlike Disciples, when someone draws TGT and puts it down, I have no idea what it is paired with (or if it is paired at all). Against disciples, I can predict what will happen in the game based on the first two turns >70% of the time, if not more. Disciples are very much cookie cutter. TGT is versatile and different every time. While a few combos are obviously the best (Teal, Green, or Purple) there are several options not far behind (Gold, Silver, Blue). Red is virtually the only offense that can not be paired TGT effectively.
N.T. Prophets are mainly good because they're so small. They aren't very fast, but they can pack quite a punch. They have recursion if you use Gabe (Di), and if you put in Micah. Also, Hidden Treasures can rip a part a defense. Standalone and Pharisees don't stand a chance, since HT can pick off the few Pharisee enhancements, and will often include angels, which can break through Balaam's Disobedience. Standalone gets shut down by Simeon + Anna, and Two Bears is vicious.
That about sums NT prophets up. They are too powerful in a small package to be lower in the tier, but they lack the speed possibilities of other decks at the top to really compete with them. They are best paired with a larger than average defense and designed to play for a long game.
Other than the fact that you're missing old school speed (which absolutely still does exist), I agree entirely with Alex's assessment.
Excellent tier list and analysis, Alex. I agree entirely.
Very nicely done Alex. I believe that disciples would still be #1 even if Thad was banned.
I apparently know what I am doing. That's new.
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I support Watchful Servant in the A Tier. Above Prophets, for sure. I'm not sure whether to put Disciples above it...
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I disagree Di should be on the very top. Here is why.
1. Di is faster than TGT
2. Di has built in anti capture. (writ and magic charms both of which are very popular, one is in every deck)
3. Access to the most powerful enhancement in the game
4. Access to CBN characters with out a second card in play.
5. Di can play TGT, White TGT cannot play DI
6. Di isn't really hurt by nazz, tgt could have some issues with it
IMO the best offense in the game is either straight Di or Di+TGT.. Combining Di's drawing and territory destruction with TGT soul winning ability.
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I disagree Di should be on the very top. Here is why.
1. Di is faster than TGT
2. Di has built in anti capture. (writ and magic charms both of which are very popular, one is in every deck)
3. Access to the most powerful enhancement in the game
4. Access to CBN characters with out a second card in play.
5. Di can play TGT, White TGT cannot play DI
6. Di isn't really hurt by nazz, tgt could have some issues with it
IMO the best offense in the game is either straight Di or Di+TGT.. Combining Di's drawing and territory destruction with TGT soul winning ability.
1. Not necessarily. Teal/Tomb and Gardenciples are both as fast or faster than Disciples.
2. I have to give this one to you. The banding helps though.
3. Meh. He is Risen is better, IMO, mainly because protect forts/sites are rampant and it interrupts and ends. It can also band TSA in if you have the CBN banding chain, and it is recurrable with Consider the Lillies.
4. Meh. TGT is fast enough, it'll be out quickly. Philip is a beast though.
6. People play Nazzy? I saw one at Iowa State, and that was only used to stop Philly Outpost, his defense was pathetic.
5. I played two Gardenciples decks at Iowa State, and they both relied on the TGT part more than the Disciples part.
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Sorry I wasn't more specific. I was specifically arguing that Di is better than White Garden Tomb, I didn't know you ment the white TGT heroes I thought you were talking straight white.
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I am very interested in this conversation. But what is DI, and what is TGT ???
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Di= disiple card
TGT= the gardon tomb
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Di:disciples deck not card for this conversation.
TGT:The Garden Tomb.
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Di=Disciples no matter what the context. Sometimes it's referring to the disciples set, if it's clarifying it's not an apostles card that was reprinted. Sometimes it's referring to a disciples deck. Context is everything.
TGT also has both the best characters in the game. Susanna (won the March Madness) and TSA (won the silent vote). TSA fits well because of He is Risen...and there's room for it, haha.
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That's why I think TGT is the best offense. Scared of Unholy Writs/Magic Charms? Splash some silver in with Angel in the Path, Gabriel, and TSA. Need some more speed? Try some purple or teal. Want a different win strategy? Add in Micah, Green Joanna, and Provisions. People Nazzy bugging you? Don't worry about, try Josh the HP with some Teal speed and destruction with Trumpet Blast.
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That's why I think TGT is the best offense. Scared of Unholy Writs/Magic Charms? Splash some silver in with Angel in the Path, Gabriel, and TSA. Need some more speed? Try some purple or teal. Want a different win strategy? Add in Micah, Green Joanna, and Provisions. People Nazzy bugging you? Don't worry about, try Josh the HP with some Teal speed and destruction with Trumpet Blast.
That would make it one big splash deck. I should try that :D
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I agree that straight TGT>straight Disciples for now, mostly due to the CBN banding, and the fact that HiR is so ridiculously good. Also, TGT can better handle Herods. However, I think that the introduction of Goliath will give Di the edge, solely because any of the Disciples can play AoCP, and Thad might end up making Big G's ability useless near end game. Pretty much the only way a TGT offense could beat a defense with Goliath is being able to pull off a Grail (that threat alone might just make Temple/Altar of Dagon actually played at Nats :o) or a Faith in Our High Priest + HiR. Everything else will be negated in one of umpteen ways. If, as Alex suggests, the TGT offense is a splash deck, then Goliath essentially necessitates two CBN battle-winning options for each attack.
As for a few other comments, IMO Zeb>WS. While he has more conditions, a well-built Zeb offense doesn't necessarily have to wait until end game, and he has access to the best Herolite enhancement in the game: Abe's Descendant.
The rest of Alex's points I pretty much agree with, as I have experience with and against all of those offenses, and the list describes my experiences very well.
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I was more just suggesting that TGT can be paired with virtually anything and thus leaves the opponent off balance initially, not encouraging a 6 color offense.
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I've been a TGT fanboy and I'm not sure if I agree. They're close when it comes to speed. Reach = Words. Pentecost = First Fruits. Matt > Susy (but Susy can probably make more rescues beings Matt isn't going to get init.). There's still fishing boat, but I've never gotten to use the draw ability, at least not a large draw. By the time I get any disciples in there it's mid to late game, and that's the time I'd want Thad to rock out.
When it comes to enhancements, He is Risen is still the best enhancement in the game. Magnificat is great too. Boat is okay, but HT can stop it and territories are usually protected from it.
Disciples has a monopoly on characters. The Phillip-Bart band is almost as good as MMoJ's band, but is much easier to get out. Matthew is better than Susy. John is better then John. Thad is better then Redemption Cards. Jo can negate Uzzah, but so does James most of the time.....
The one thing besides He is Risen that TGT has going for it would be the ignore. It still kills small defenses and stand alones, which still seem to be fairly popular.
If you're splashing anything but purple with TGT you're doing something wrong. (Atleast it seems that way to me. I haven't competed in t1 this year. You can mix it with silver like a boss for t2.).
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The thing of it is, you can use TGT with straight Di. 8)
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The thing of it is, you can use TGT with straight Di. 8)
I've never had much luck with that.
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If you're splashing anything but purple with TGT you're doing something wrong.
Are we treating Moses as purple now? I don't know any TGT deck that doesn't run Transfig with Moses (and sometimes Elijah).
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like almost every tgt deck.
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like almost every tgt deck.
qft.
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TGT can be paired with Gold extremely well.
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Luke/John Gold w/ ABOMB is still a favorite of mine. I think it is still viable but I do hate how it helps my opponent draw into what they need. As a Abe's Kid junky I want to add a blue guy or two like Seeker/Soldier and I want to add grey for Scribe (to get back Abe's Kid :) ) and Casting Lots for Lampstand b/c every ABOMB deck needs Mayhem. I like Fearfulness too but have yet to fit it all in. Grey/Black ABOMB FTW! would this be considered a rougue? ABOMB Variant I suppose...
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Spoilers, font size, bold, and other things don't appear to be working with the update.
A Tier is now:
The Garden Tomb
Disciples
Watchful Servant
N.T. Prophets
Begin B Tier debating. If I get enough "Disciples are better than TGT!" Than I'll switch, but for now this is what was given.
B Tier:
Fight by the Numbers Banding
Z's Temple
Choose the Blocker
Teal/Red
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nt prophets and watchful servant still have yet to prove themselves. combo decks where the win strat relies on a single card has never been a-tier in my book.
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Watchful Servant is the new Zebulun. Zebulun has proved himself. I would have beat you at IA State with a Watchful Servant deck, had I drawn DoN. I really need to cut that deck down...
It wasn't my decision to make N.T. Prophets A Tier...I wanted them in B...
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the fact servant is the new zeb still doesnt change my statement. in a meta that is dominated by speed, zeb and servant fire off far too slow before the game is over. i realize servant was a (poorly conceived, imho) soft counter to speed, but speed still has the upperhand in a battle against servant. if a speed deck has burned through its deck to make servant even remotely viable, then the game is usually already won by the speed player since he has all his answers far earlier than the servant player. zeb and servant are novelty decks imo, b-tier at best.
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I agree that Watchful servent should be tier B. Also TGT isn't what it used to be do to Golgatha being everyware. And Teal/Red when played right can do pretty well.
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I agree that Watchful servent should be tier B. Also TGT isn't what it used to be do to Golgatha being everyware. And Teal/Red when played right can do pretty well.
A TGT deck (read: white females) is strong without the ignoring effects of TGT.
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agreed, white is insanely strong without tgt. tgt itself is pretty much the icing on the cake. tgt should be s-tier.
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agreed, white is insanely strong without tgt. tgt itself is pretty much the icing on the cake. tgt should be s-tier.
Although I agree MmoJ isn't nearly as awesome w/o TGT
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I agree ws should be b tier. I also think CTB should be C-tier or non existent. I have only seen two all out choose the blocker decks in type 1, one awhile ago and one this year on rts.
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Watchful Servant has been moved down to B Tier. I support moving CTB to C Tier.
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Genesis and Red should both get moved up a spot.
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CtB is excellent. I ran one in RooT for awhile to great success. The problem it has it there is no good defensive pairing for it (but we aren't thinking about defense, so that's irrelevant). It's around 12-15 cards (average size), can use TGT (via blue/green ladies), and isn't countered often.
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CTB is definitely B tier at least, and I'd even support it being A tier. I'd say Genesis is B tier as well.
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I honestly think that TGT and Disciples should be alone in A tier. They are really the only two offenses deserving of it.
B tier should then include NT Prophets, FBTN banding, Watchful Servant, Z temple, and CTB. Probably in that order. I think Genesis would be a top C tier offense, so I guess I wouldn't mind them in C, but they really aren't on par with most of these.
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Disciples and TGT should go to S tier
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I support Disciples and TGT for S tier. They are clearly the best two, so it does make sense to seperate them.
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the only reason i wouldnt move disciples to s-tier is because this tournament season isnt over yet, but im 99% sure they will prove themselves all the way to nationals. that is the only reason i think tgt should be alone in s-tier for now, and because tgt is still so strong after so many years and has proven itself too many times.
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the only reason i wouldnt move disciples to s-tier is because this tournament season isnt over yet, but im 99% sure they will prove themselves all the way to nationals. that is the only reason i think tgt should be alone in s-tier for now, and because tgt is still so strong after so many years and has proven itself too many times.
I strongly hold Disciples won't win Nationals of any category, but that's only because any serious deck will pack a little bit of anti-Disciples just in case.
Also, "S Tier" has, as far as tier lists like this go, never meant good, at all. S tier has always traditionally meant the worst tier.
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S tier on all boards I have been on has been the top tier (largely due to it being the max weapon proficiency in Fire Emblem games). I figured since someone else brought it up first, it'd be ok to reference.
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Ah, I forgot JRPGs. It's usually considered good for JRPGs, but on tiers I look at (for instance, Brawl), S tier is the lowest, and I'm sure you can figure out what it stands for.
Hint: It's Shark.
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...what? s-tier has ALWAYS meant the best of the best.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list)
unless of course meta knight got nerfed overnight. s-tier is always reserved for the best (usually broken) characters in all fighting game franchises, as well as any other tier list.
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Boy, now I'm trying to remember which game would have had S as bad. I seem to have been misinformed...
My bad.
.___.
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Bump with new set release to be considered. Here's my initial reaction for the offense:
S Tier
Red Warriors
A Tier
Judges/Silver
Prophets
Fight by the Numbers Banding
B Tier
Genesis
Royalty
The Garden Tomb
Choose the Blocker
C Tier
Watchful Servant
Teal
Job
D Tier
Silver
Luke
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You forgot Disciples in A tier. TGT is still A tier. Judges/Angels is B tier. Isaiah is B tier.
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Heh someone didn't read the spoiler. Discples got killed.
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Disciples didn't get killed unto the majority of people actually use the counters in competetive play. If counters killed decks, speed was killed around priests.
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Here's the thing:Some of the counters are the best cards or serve a dual role.
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Here's the thing:Some of the counters are the best cards or serve a dual role.
Here's the thing: There's at least 3 counters to Thad in the game now that are easy to use, yet no one uses them. Hmmm.
If the counter get used, Disciples get downgraded. But, Redemption history says they won't get used.
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Well i'm going to run anti thad measures.
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Well i'm going to run anti thad measures.
Why? With Thad being so thoroughly countered, no one will use him.
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I'm not so sure TGT should stay A Tier. I'm guessing the beginning of this year we'll see a lot of the counter cards while some people are still behind and playing their decks from this year.
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I'm not so sure TGT should stay A Tier. I'm guessing the beginning of this year we'll see a lot of the counter cards while some people are still behind and playing their decks from this year.
I'm not really sure why it wouldn't be A tier other than not being as good as prophets or warriors.
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Should I divide Isaiah from Prophets?
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Should I divide Isaiah from Prophets?
Absolutely. He works better without other prophets getting in his way and competing for deck space. Isaiah will be a popular herolite strategy.
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Well i'm going to run anti thad measures.
Why? With Thad being so thoroughly countered, no one will use him.
Should have said cov with death.
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I'm not sure why fight by the numbers banding is A tier. It's like, terrible now.
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I'm really hesitant at putting Judges/Silver in B Tier. I love them so much...
S Tier
Red Warriors
A Tier
Prophets
The Garden Tomb
Disciples
B Tier
Judges/Silver
Genesis
Royalty
Choose the Blocker
Fight by the Numbers Banding
C Tier
Watchful Servant
Teal
Job
D Tier
Silver
Luke
Moved FBTNB down to B Tier. Why is it terrible now? I figure you can use it with a red splash to make it awesome.
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Canaanites will be a popular defense, and Tower of Thebez laughs at FBTNB. Goliath is splashed, and he laughs at them (except for Abishai, but who is going to use him now?)
Are you placing them in order in tier yet or just in tier?
Job to bottom tier.
Genesis might be A tier material.
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I can't say for certain what tier Genesis will be but I can guarantee that after a year of being mostly ineffective, Genesis is good again.
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Canaanites will be a popular defense, and Tower of Thebez laughs at FBTNB. Goliath is splashed, and he laughs at them (except for Abishai, but who is going to use him now?)
Are you placing them in order in tier yet or just in tier?
Just in tier.
And David. Red laughs at Phillies though. Tower of Thebez is a good point though.
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This thread is beginning to show just how much this set will shake things up. It didn't completely ruin any old dominant strategies, but took them down a notch to allow other themes to compete.
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This thread is beginning to show just how much this set will shake things up. It didn't completely ruin any old dominant strategies, but took them down a notch to allow other themes to compete.
Disciples, TGT, Red variants, and prophet variants will probably rule T1 next year.
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I'm guessing Disciples and TGT will be less popular due to new strategies being introduced. I'm playing Judges/Silver because I love Moses. At least, I'll start with Judges/Silver. Probably will end up succumbing to a Red/Purple or Red/Teal deck.
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I'm guessing Disciples and TGT will be less popular due to new strategies being introduced. I'm playing Judges/Silver because I love Moses. At least, I'll start with Judges/Silver. Probably will end up succumbing to a Red/Purple or Red/Teal deck.
Disciples/TGT will definitely be less popular. But they both still did fairly well in playtesting, so they'll be around. They'll just be different than previously.
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TGT is going to be gold next year. I can't wait.
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Anyone who said Disciples was the best offense in T1 is wrong apparently. Disciples took 3/10 top ten spots. TGT took 4/10, FBTN took 2/10, and Anti-Meta took 1/10.
Troll me, Nate, Troll me, you know I'm right.
Give me some time to go over next set and I'll tell you what's the best bros :-*
Things I did/was right about this year:
Thaddeus will dominate, especially in T2. I talked him up so hard early (and then totally talked him down later).
I posted the first Disciples Speed deck (credits to someone else for realizing Pharisees though).
TGT is the best offense
Goliath is the best evil character ever. He was everywhere at Nats.
Edit: Sorry, I was having a justification of outlandish statements moment.
Edit2: I have no idea what I am doing and totally made up numbers for what decks. Fixed now.
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One of the top ten was also a FBTNB...
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One of the top ten was also a FBTNB...
Oh, right, Martin. I should edit that.
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Normally I would say, "yes! Finally red is getting the respect it deserves!" But I can't because you only giving it that respect because it's "OP" now.
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also I heard there wasnt hardly any di sites seen at NATS. wierd.
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One of the top ten was also a FBTNB...
Thanks for bringing that up bro. Not to mention that same deck won ironman :police: not to go tootin my own horn, just puttin out there..
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also I heard there wasnt hardly any di sites seen at NATS. wierd.
That's mostly true for T1-2P. I only saw a few people using them in the top 1/4 of the room. A lot of that might have to do with the fact that they do not help Philistines which was the most popular defense.
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can we get an update on the tier lists now after nats? personally i feel the top are:
S Tier
The Garden Tomb (4 out of top 10 at nats)
A Tier
Disciples (3 out of top 10)
Fight by the Numbers Banding (1 out of top 10, smashes though splash/phar/speed defenses)
B.5 Tier
Anti-Meta (1 out of top 10, my money was on this deck taking nats, only thing keeping it from A tier is increased probability of time-outs)
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also I heard there wasnt hardly any di sites seen at NATS. wierd.
Not really. Whenever speed decks and heavy offense deck are doing well, you don't expect to see slots wasted with defensive cards. Naz is about the only one I expected to see, but when you consider how awesome Philistines are, it's no real surprise Naz didn't show up.
S Tier
The Garden Tomb (4 out of top 10 at nats)
A Tier
Disciples (3 out of top 10)
Fight by the Numbers Banding (1 out of top 10, smashes though splash/phar/speed defenses)
B.5 Tier
Anti-Meta (1 out of top 10, my money was on this deck taking nats, only thing keeping it from A tier is increased probability of time-outs)
Anti-meta is more of a deck style than an offense or defense per se. I don't think we can tier it properly. I agree otherwise, especially considering FBTNB got some help this set probably.
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I really didn't have a problem with timing out, although I would have against Tim and John. I agree that it was style though.
TGT also had much higher rankings than Disciples. And Belle was playing it, and she's gosu, so it's obviously the best.
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One thing you guys are forgetting. Any offense that relies on a fortress (TGT and Job, I'm looking at you) has several hard counters in the new set. There are multiple cards that drop not only forts, but also arts and sites as well (Assyrian Siege Army probably the most versatile).
Also, you've haven't done the evil tiers yet. The new set gave boosts to several mediocre defenses (Assyrians, Babs, Egyptians), so they have to be redone too.
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That last tier list was the final for this year. The new tier list is more like this:
Bump with new set release to be considered. Here's my initial reaction for the offense:
S Tier
Red Warriors
A Tier
Judges/Silver
Prophets
Fight by the Numbers Banding
B Tier
Genesis
Royalty
The Garden Tomb
Disciples
Choose the Blocker
C Tier
Watchful Servant
Teal
Job
D Tier
Silver
Luke
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One thing you guys are forgetting. Any offense that relies on a fortress (TGT and Job, I'm looking at you) has several hard counters in the new set. There are multiple cards that drop not only forts, but also arts and sites as well (Assyrian Siege Army probably the most versatile).
Keep thinking that. TGT isn't reliant on a fortress. The fortress just breaks an already good offense into top tier.
I'm not concerned at all about Assyrian Siege Army in T1. People would need to play defense in order for him for matter.
Also, you've haven't done the evil tiers yet. The new set gave boosts to several mediocre defenses (Assyrians, Babs, Egyptians), so they have to be redone too.
TBH, we never updated the defense list for last year because it doesn't matter as much.
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Also, you've haven't done the evil tiers yet. The new set gave boosts to several mediocre defenses (Assyrians, Babs, Egyptians), so they have to be redone too.
TBH, we never updated the defense list for last year because it doesn't matter as much.
Tell that to Trolololol.
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What kind of defense are you calling that though?
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Orange/Black. It was A tier.
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you cant make a proper tier list 4 days after the new cards were released...no extensive gameplay, no constructed high-level tournament play outside of draft, etc. the tier list proposed post-nats with the new cards looks pretty legit, but its just speculation at this point.
concerning anti-meta, its as much a deck archtype as any. the tier lists shouldnt be tiered by offense or defense per se, but its overall win strat. 99% of anti-meta is stalling and hard countering anything your opponent throws at you until you can set up watchful or an alt win strat, so it should be classified and ranked as such.
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you cant make a proper tier list 4 days after the new cards were released...no extensive gameplay, no constructed high-level tournament play outside of draft, etc. the tier list proposed post-nats with the new cards looks pretty legit, but its just speculation at this point.
concerning anti-meta, its as much a deck archtype as any. the tier lists shouldnt be tiered by offense or defense per se, but its overall win strat. 99% of anti-meta is stalling and hard countering anything your opponent throws at you until you can set up watchful or an alt win strat, so it should be classified and ranked as such.
Archetypes are too straightforward and not the best for newer players, which is why I started this to begin with (see cookie monster's threads asking if this defense or that defense is any good).
S Tier:
Speed
A Tier:
Balanced
Anti-Meta (this could even be B Tier)
Hero-Lite
B Tier:
Deck Discard
Hand Discard
Everything Else
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That last tier list was the final for this year. The new tier list is more like this:
Bump with new set release to be considered. Here's my initial reaction for the offense:
S Tier
Red Warriors
A Tier
Judges/Silver
Prophets
Fight by the Numbers Banding
B Tier
Genesis
Royalty
The Garden Tomb
Disciples
Choose the Blocker
C Tier
Watchful Servant
Teal
Job
D Tier
Silver
Luke
IMHO, I believe fbtnb belongs in A tier. It got 7th at nats, very well coulda/shoulda gotten 3rd, and won ironman.
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It is in A Tier in the guesses with the new set list, and was A Tier in MKC's final tier list for last year.
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Did i say A? I meant S :P
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Any list putting Genesis below A, maybe S, is invalid.
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tgt will continue to be the only s until people decide to actively tech against it. the only golgotha i saw at top tables at nats was used by justin, thats it.
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tgt will continue to be the only s until people decide to actively tech against it. the only golgotha i saw at top tables at nats was used by justin, thats it.
I wasn't at a top table, but I had Golgotha in my T1 deck (moreso for King David/Widow ignores than TGT, though, since my Herods are royalty, and things like to ignore evil royalty).
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I say red/purple is tier 1. You have several different ways to band to David/King David, and the MOST diverse set of battle winners between them, including the never-outdated authority of Christ. You also have 5 negate cards that are also potentially battle winners, and with purple's draw and the new red banding draw hero, it has major draw power. And you can probably get away with making it only about 20 cards. Definitely tier 1 imo.
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I actually don't even use AoCP in my Red/Purple.
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tgt will continue to be the only s until people decide to actively tech against it. the only golgotha i saw at top tables at nats was used by justin, thats it.
And of course the one game I REALLY needed it (against SirNobody), it never showed up. His 3 non-SoG/NJ rescues were: King David freebie, TGT freebie, King David/AoCP on KoT cuz I still couldn't low block with a Herod...
Of course, Golgotha was in my next draw along with the SoG that would have won the game for me...
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Bump. Can we get defensive tier lists? I'd like to see what other people think.
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It may be too early for "Definitive," but Samuel and Genesis are definitely S tier. Perhaps TGT also, but I haven't seen anyone playing with it so idk. A would look something like Disciples, Red/Purple, Red/Teal, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Judges.
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Can we get defensive tier lists?
Sorry. I've been reading a lot about all the great offenses, but I haven't seen much other than "Black is weak" and "Egyptians are fast"
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Top Percentage Tier
Crimson
Weak Tier
Black
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Brown (either kingdom), Babs, Egyptians, Romans (in a proper hand control deck) are what I'd say is A Tier. Along with chumping, of course.
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S Tier
Genesis
Samuel
TGT
A Tier
Red/Teal
Red/Purple
FBTNB
Isaiah
Prophets
Disciples
B Tier
Royalty
Choose the Blocker
N.T. Prophets
C Tier
Watchful Servant
Teal
Job
D Tier
Silver
Luke
A Tier looks way too big. I vote for dropping Prophets to B tier, and maybe Disciples or FBTNB as well.
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What really qualifies Disciples for the drop? Nothing in the new set really killed them. FBTNB, I'd say drop.
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Disciples didn't get any help. Power creep dictates that everything else gets better, so if something doesn't get better, they fall behind the others. Tier lists are relative to how good things are.
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if everything else weaker than disciples got better but disciples didnt, it could still be weaker or on the same power level as disciples. i dont feel anyone really knows a definitive answer to if disciples is lacking compared to the new archetypes this year simply because i dont think people have been playing disciples in lieu of the newer stuff.
also, s-tier is usually reserved for only one entity.
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Usually, but I think the argument for both Genesis and Samuel can be easily made this season.
The A tier is a little big, because FbtNB doesn't belong on it. Other than that, it's a good thing that it's so big: many more offenses are viable. Genesis and Samuel are the best, but quite a few are playable.
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maybe there is no s-tier currently...its many times reserved for the absolute best of the broken. perhaps shift all tiers down 1? then it would make sense to have a big b-tier.
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Possibly, but I think that would send the wrong message in comparative power. Since there are no S defenses, people will see a list of 2 A's and a bunch of B's and think that the B's match up in power with the defensive B's, when actually they're on the same level as the defensive A's.
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Possibly, but I think that would send the wrong message in comparative power. Since there are no S defenses, people will see a list of 2 A's and a bunch of B's and think that the B's match up in power with the defensive B's, when actually they're on the same level as the defensive A's.
Then that's their problem. They're two separate tier lists.
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Tier lists should never be judged against each other- even in something like this. Tiers should be judged only against themselves, if that makes sense. Also, there's no way Egyptians are anything higher than B tier on defense. Genyptians are the only thing even remotely viable right now (though I am going to be playing around with deck discard soon), and they're only good when paired with Genesis. Even then, they don't function much as a defense as much as they do support for the offense.
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I disagree with that sentiment. The idea of tier lists is to help newer players get their bearings, since established players should be able to figure out what's good and what's not on their own. Why make things complicated, misleading, and confusing instead of just having 2 strats in the S tier instead of 1?
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Tier lists are fundamentally flawed in CCGs, because the way tiers are measured is how good something is when it's played to it's absolute highest potential. In the case of Redemption, this means that absolutely every draw goes absolutely perfectly. Because of the way this works, the decision of a tier list would come down entirely to a coin flip, because both strategies would be drawing perfect offense to take down any defense their opponent might have (with the approach that Rob has taken with Redemption, a perfect offense will trounce a perfect defense every time). Both players would draw all seven of their Lost Souls from the start, in hopes of getting the first turn. Whoever has that first turn then, would be guaranteed the win. This probably isn't a universal truth, but it would require very extensive testing to prove me wrong on this one.
The point I'm trying to make here is that, for the purposes of Redemption, traditional tier lists simply will not work. As such, I support either larger tiers in the A and B sections, or more tiers in general (which is, in my opinion, the better option).
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Idk if it's about every draw going perfectly. Samuel and Genesis are so good in part because you can be almost guaranteed the centerpiece of the deck in the first two rounds. 10% of a Samuel deck generates a Samuel, and slightly more of a Genesis deck generates a Joseph. Even if your draw was pretty lousy with Samuel, the odds of you drawing neither Samuel, Professor Oak, Angelica's Secret, or W3 pretty soon are minimal, especially since the deck has a lot of other drawing. In Genesis, all you need is Joseph, Rachel, Angel at Shur, Answer to Prayer, Numerous as the Stars, or Creation of the World with Abel.
So it's not just about perfect draws v. perfect draws, but also how likely you are to get what you need statistically.
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Idk if it's about every draw going perfectly. Samuel and Genesis are so good in part because you can be almost guaranteed the centerpiece of the deck in the first two rounds. 10% of a Samuel deck generates a Samuel, and slightly more of a Genesis deck generates a Joseph. Even if your draw was pretty lousy with Samuel, the odds of you drawing neither Samuel, Professor Oak, Angelica's Secret, or W3 pretty soon are minimal, especially since the deck has a lot of other drawing. In Genesis, all you need is Joseph, Rachel, Angel at Shur, Answer to Prayer, Numerous as the Stars, or Creation of the World with Abel.
So it's not just about perfect draws v. perfect draws, but also how likely you are to get what you need statistically.
What I described is the way traditional tiers are set up. In Brawl for instance, Meta Knight is the top tier because when played to his absolute full potential, he can beat all but two other characters in that game also played to their full potential. However, this approach isn't feasible in Redemption, so we're forced to take a different approach, which is what you described.
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Idk if it's about every draw going perfectly. Samuel and Genesis are so good in part because you can be almost guaranteed the centerpiece of the deck in the first two rounds. 10% of a Samuel deck generates a Samuel, and slightly more of a Genesis deck generates a Joseph. Even if your draw was pretty lousy with Samuel, the odds of you drawing neither Samuel, Professor Oak, Angelica's Secret, or W3 pretty soon are minimal, especially since the deck has a lot of other drawing. In Genesis, all you need is Joseph, Rachel, Angel at Shur, Answer to Prayer, Numerous as the Stars, or Creation of the World with Abel.
So it's not just about perfect draws v. perfect draws, but also how likely you are to get what you need statistically.
I feel like your Sam deck is very different from mine.... That or I'm misunderstanding what your names are... Actually, I think I got all but the last - Wheel within a Wheel? is that W3?
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Yep. My Sam deck will likely change now that everybody realized Samuel negates TToD's draw ability.
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he doesnt negate the draw, he negates the play. even without the play off ttod, there are still plenty of options available to the combo's brigades to interrupt/battle winner. and ttod is still good support to the kings in the deck.
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Yep. My Sam deck will likely change now that everybody realized Samuel negates TToD's draw ability.
How does he negate either?
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Samuel (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)
This is to avoid Hidden Treasures abuse.
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Samuel (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. Brigade: Green/Yellow Ability: 4 / 4 Class: None Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)
This is to avoid Hidden Treasures abuse.
Correct. For example, Hidden Treasures + Samson's Sacrifice. A gold/green Deborah would have the same issue. Maybe she will just negate artifacts?
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Samuel (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)
This is to avoid Hidden Treasures abuse.
Correct. For example, Hidden Treasures + Samson's Sacrifice.
Or you could just use Holy of Holies (in a temple) along with these two...
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Or maybe we let the combo work? It's pretty bam, but it loses you a turn of rescuing.
HoH wouldn't work because Sam is CBN.
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HoH wouldn't work because Sam is CBN.
Deborah probably will have CBN too since we try to put CBN on about every green Hero printed in recent history. ::)
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My proposed tier list.
S Tier
Genesis
Samuel
A Tier
TGT
Red/Teal
Red/Purple
Isaiah
Disciples
B Tier
Prophets
FBTNB
Royalty
Choose the Blocker
N.T. Prophets
C Tier
Watchful Servant
Teal
Job
D Tier
Silver
Luke
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The only issue I have with that is that Ezekiel is actually more successful in my experience.
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My only problem with Zeke is that it's much, much more based around a specific defense (Babs) than Isaiah is around Assyrians.
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True, but it's the defense you'd want it to be based around. Babs make a nuisance of themselves when there are side-battles to be had.
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No argument here. However, I'm inclined to say Isaiah is then better as a whole, because it's slightly more versatile. You can't really use a Zeke deck with anything but Babylonians, which makes it lose a point in my mind. -shrug-
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I don't think this is really about versatility, but raw power. Zeke wins more? He's higher on the list. Though a note should be added about the defense.
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I think that Isiah is better because I used him with Seraph and Call, and I just smashed through a Nats winning defence without any enhancments.
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The meta's shifted a lot, I don't think we should judge offenses by their ability to beat last year's defense.
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I don't think this is really about versatility, but raw power. Zeke wins more? He's higher on the list. Though a note should be added about the defense.
In terms of raw power, Isaiah is better, because that's an offense that can be run without requiring a specific defense to be good. I'm still not convinced that Zeke IS better than Isaiah. It's entirely possible that Zeke simply fits Pol's play style better, which is why he wins more with him.
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I don't think this is really about versatility, but raw power. Zeke wins more? He's higher on the list.
Some of it is versatility. A more versatile offense is more likely to be able to take down a range of defense. An offense that can use multiple defenses with it is also likely to be in a stronger deck, so it's the better option.
I really can't comment on which is better though. Isaiah wins in booster draft, hands down.
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Just curious why Zeke would be considered better than Isaiah? Isaiah has more reliable recursion (places on top and draws) he makes a couple of battle winners CBN (just like Zeke) and he gets to use Hidden Treasures (unlike Zeke). Is it just Zeke's stats (which more easily allow him to play his CBN battle winners)? Or is it all about the Pan? I personally think Pan is a bit overrated, but that's just me...
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Zeke has much better initiative, better Zeke Enhancements, pairs with a defense that's more useful in side-battles, has pan (although that's a minor consideration), has Teal, and negates Horses.
Isaiah has a CBN band, some drawing, faster recursion, negation of EC's LS's and site access.
To me, that looks like the scales are in Zeke's favor, and my use of both of them has borne that out. However, I could see Isaiah being more appealing to some.
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I prefer Isaiah to Zeke. :2cents:
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Of course, in one of my decks I use both. The Pale/Crimson EC's are very nice. You never know whether you'll get hit with Confusion, Great Image, Bel's Banquet, DoU, or any combination thereof. Invoking Fear is also amazing, especially on Sapphira or a Tributed Assyrian.
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Zeke has much better initiative, better Zeke Enhancements, pairs with a defense that's more useful in side-battles, has pan (although that's a minor consideration), has Teal, and negates Horses.
Isaiah has a CBN band, some drawing, faster recursion, negation of EC's LS's and site access.
To me, that looks like the scales are in Zeke's favor, and my use of both of them has borne that out. However, I could see Isaiah being more appealing to some.
Isaiah has the ability to use Hidden Treasures, create a bulletproof 9/11 Hero, the ability to be searched for, and pairs with a defense that's better at a medium size. Not to mention the aforementioned fact that Isaiah is much less reliant on a specific defense due to the recursion and searching for him. Isaiah enhancements (including Siegeworks, my personal favorite of the dual-colored prophet enhancements) can be used more often and are much more easily recurable (in late game, Isaiah can pull an enhancement out of the discard pile and immediately draw it).
Frankly, it looks like the scales are stacked quite heavily in the favor of Isaiah.
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The fact that Zeke gets initiative FAR easier is a huge advantage, considering none of their new enhancements are ITB's.
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The fact that Zeke gets initiative FAR easier is a huge advantage, considering none of their new enhancements are ITB's.
Live Coal!?!! o_O
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Isaiah recursion is kind of just for the defense except Live Coal. None of them are ITB, and Isaiah is huge. Zeke can actually use his CBN enhancements. Also, I assert that Babs are better than Assyrians no matter the size (in fact, Assyrians benefit even more from a larger size).
Nebuchadnezzar
Nergal
Belshazzar
Sapphira
Astrologers
Nebushashban
Bel's Banquet
Great Image
Deceit
Swift Horses
Head of Gold
Invoking Fear
I challenge you to do better with 10 cards on Assyrians!
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The fact that Zeke gets initiative FAR easier is a huge advantage, considering none of their new enhancements are ITB's.
Live Coal!?!! o_O
So you negate and discard one of their enhancements, what if they play another one? :P
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The fact that Zeke gets initiative FAR easier is a huge advantage, considering none of their new enhancements are ITB's.
Live Coal!?!! o_O
So you negate and discard one of their enhancements, what if they play another one? :P
I know you have a counter to everything in theory, but in practice an Angel banded to Isaiah seems to work pretty dern well.
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True.
On the flip side I've also been able to dismantle a few Isaiah offenses with surprising ease.
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True.
On the flip side I've also been able to dismantle a few Isaiah offenses with surprising ease.
Easier than Ezekiel offenses? Considering the best Hero in the Ezekiel tin works just as well with Isaiah, I'd still be inclined to give Isaiah my vote.
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Isaiah recursion is kind of just for the defense except Live Coal. None of them are ITB, and Isaiah is huge. Zeke can actually use his CBN enhancements. Also, I assert that Babs are better than Assyrians no matter the size (in fact, Assyrians benefit even more from a larger size).
Nebuchadnezzar
Nergal
Belshazzar
Sapphira
Astrologers
Nebushashban
Bel's Banquet
Great Image
Deceit
Swift Horses
Head of Gold
Invoking Fear
I challenge you to do better with 10 cards on Assyrians!
That's twelve cards, but okay.
Siege Army
Survivor
Archer
The Rabsaris
King Tiglath Pileser II
User of Curious Arts
Achan's Sin
Captured by Assyria
Confusion
Death of Unrighteous
2K Horses
Forgotten History
While Babs might have slightly more physical oomph, Survivor can't be discarded and is great for initiative. Siege Army is quite self-explanatory; Babylonians don't have anything that's that versatile. Three character banding is also something Babs don't have, and cannot be discounted.
Also, why aren't more people emphasizing the fact that Isaiah creates a CBN "Protected by opponents" 9/11 hero? How does that not completely trump anything Ezekiel brings to the table?
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I don't have the cards to test it yet but I'd be more inclined to use both. They're both good, why not double up on that? I don't think it would take up that much space either.
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I don't have the cards to test it yet but I'd be more inclined to use both. They're both good, why not double up on that? I don't think it would take up that much space either.
The main thing is that, unless you use Babylonians and Assyrians, you're forced to choose who's enhancements you'd rather have (Zeke's or Isaiah's). It's not really wise to put in two or three enhancements unless you have a lot of cards that can use them.
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Astrologers and Invoking Terror is a deadly combo. One turn you put Invoking under your draw pile then on your opponents turn you get it out with Astrologers
and make them discard a card from their teritory.
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Egyptian Magicians is even better because you can actually play it straight from bottom of deck!
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The Terrifying Beast beats both of those for it's NoN bonus.
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If I was to play prophets then would it e wise to have Zeke and Isaiah in the deck?
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If I was to play prophets then would it e wise to have Zeke and Isaiah in the deck?
You will get mixed responses. I'm on the line right now, as the ability to recur Wheel Within a Wheel is appealing. However, I do not currently have Zeke in my Prophets deck, as it has an Assyrian defense.
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I have both Zeke enchantments in my almost complete prophets deck (but no zeke yet!), and I am going to play babs, can't i just play all of the good and evil cards as offence?
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I propose to eliminate Samuel from the tier list. There's just too much diversity there. It would also solve the problem of there being two S tiers, and would move Red/Purple up considerably.
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Are N.T. prophets really A? I've never seen them, but they don't seem super great.
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Not anymore.
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Have there been any defensive tier-lists proposed yet? I dont really want to look through 14 pages for it.
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Where's Genesis and why isn't Judges up farther?
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Where's Genesis and why isn't Judges up farther?
I beleive the most current tier list is at the top of the 12th page, however, I do not see Judges listed at all in it. :o
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Where's Genesis and why isn't Judges up farther?
I beleive the most current tier list is at the top of the 12th page, however, I do not see Judges listed at all in it. :o
Yeah judges could take disciples place at the bottom of the A tier.
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I propose to eliminate Samuel from the tier list. There's just too much diversity there. It would also solve the problem of there being two S tiers, and would move Red/Purple up considerably.
I half agree with you. Rather than a blanket "Samuel" tier list, I propose we come up with the three (I believe there are only three) "main themes" that are backed by Samuel (i.e. Purple Royalty, Red Warrior Class, and Rainbow Sam). The themes have been drastically explored and fleshed out since I originally posted that tier list, so it definitely needs updated. Also, I don't believe that there's anything wrong with having more than one "S tier" theme, as long as we don't get carried away with it. There are people who will say Sam is stronger and people who will say Gen is stronger, placing one or the other on top, even in an unofficial tier list, seems unfair. Frankly, with the set being relatively balanced this year (bunch of different decks featuring Sam, Genesis; and Disciples is still quite strong), it might be better to do away with "S tier" entirely and just have five tiers: A, B, C, D, and E. I'll work on this idea, if people can give me ideas for the fundamental Sam decks out there (not "I just made up this offense last week"; stuff that is relatively commonly seen).
Yeah judges could take disciples place at the bottom of the A tier.
Judges should be added but they aren't stronger than Disciples, by a long shot.
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I think the first two tiers can be defined as followed. I haven't really seen anyone use anything other than these in the last two months, and honestly, I believe there's a reason for that; other people can flesh out the bottom tiers and what order they'd like to see them in. Also, for sake of ease, I think it might be wise to focus on tournament viable offenses and defenses when creating these lists. My Heroless deck has the strongest record of anything I've built, but at 154 cards, it will never do anything but time out and lose in a real tournament. Sorry for the double post, but I figured since this is containing the proposed revised tier list, it would be better to make a separate post for it.
A Tier
Genesis
Purple Royalty*
(Red) Warrior Class*
Rainbow Banding Samuel*
Disciples
B Tier
TGT Ladies
Isaiah
Ezekiel
Judges
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*GASPSHOCK*
TGT isn't the very first?!?!
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I haven't seen much TGT this year, but with small defenses being the norm, and Babylonians (with Pan) being strong this year, I don't they have the speed to compete with Disciples, Gen, and Sam.
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Cool, do what you can to spread that idea :)
My TGT deck is still boss. And it's pretty much just as fast as everything else. And I trust its rescues against your small 'D' more than I trust your's against mine. At least against you I actually get to put EC's into battle.
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The sad part is that I have still yet to build a good TGT deck. (Other than netdecking Gabe's winning deck to show the virtue of speed)
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TGT is still very much good, alive and top tier. And it can be combined with Disciples, making it faster.
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TGT is still very much good, alive and top tier. And it can be combined with Disciples, making it faster.
And much, much, worse.
A Tier
TGT
Purple/Red*
Genesis
Teal/Red*
Disciples
B Tier
Judges
Red
Prophets
C Tier
Silver
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The meta has started to settle down, and I'd like to start this again. Here's what I've seen (TGT might drop, and the whole defensive tier list is iffy)
Offense
A Tier
Samuel (Red/Purple)
TGT
Samuel (Teal/Green/Gold)
Genesis
Gardenciples
Disciples
B Tier
Prophets (Silver/Green)
Mono Red
Judges
C Tier
Royalty
Silver
Defense
A Tier
Egyptian
Pharisee
Babylonian
Standalone
B Tier
Pale Green (Assyrian, primarily)
Israelite Kings
Canaanite
Philistine
C Tier
Heretics
Saducees
Other unique ideas (they're probably bad ones)
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There's no way Samuel decks are in a totally separate tier than Gardensciples, Genesis, and TGT.
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I agree. Dropped.
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Palegreen is the strongest defense brigade. Bump it up and drop phars down to B or C tier. Mono Red is in no way B tier.
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Are they sorted within their own brigades?
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Offense
A Tier
Samuel (Teal/Green/Gold)
Gardenciples
Genesis
Samuel (Red/Purple)
Disciples
TGT
I re-ordered A Tier to what I think it should be. I don't care about defense tier because no one needs it anyway.
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I haven't seen a teal/gold/green Samuel deck yet. Even so red/purple has to be better.
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I haven't seen a teal/gold/green Samuel deck yet. Even so red/purple has to be better.
I would be inclined to agree with Red here, but I guess I could be proven wrong.
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I haven't seen a teal/gold/green Samuel deck yet. Even so red/purple has to be better.
I personally believe that Teal/Green/Gold is the best deck. It's kinda like this (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/deck-building-and-design/if-this-was-your-offense/), with less Silver and blue, but more teal and Moses. Silver is a very viable add instead of teal though. Still the same category, but I was unsure of how to put it. The searches make it much faster, and Isaiah pretty much counters everything meta. Samuel has better back up as well with the green. The Teal set asides help a lot too, and not much can stop Aaron/Moses
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My favorite Sam-I-Am deck used Gold, Green, Purple, Red, Silver and Teal. No White or Blue though.
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I don't follow all the different Sam decks because they're all the same to me, so I can't comment on the different forms, however, I think we can all agree that any well-constructed ones are A Tier. I've been using Gardensciples a lot lately, and frankly, I don't think anything else available (at least that falls into established deck archetypes) can beat Gardensciples, both on a strong draw and an average draw. They're almost inarguably faster (4DC, Pentecost, First Fruits [admittedly a Sam deck can use both of these], Reach of Desperation, Words of Encouragement, Fishing Boat, Susie, and Matthew), have strong battle winners (AoCp, MLaMG, He is Risen, Passover Hymn), have banding that is at the very least, almost as strong as any Sam band, natural protection from capture along with an indirect protection from discard via Fishing Boat, and that's not even to mention TGT itself, which in this meta is absolutely killer. I would argue that a well-constructed Gardensciples deck (throwing 10 Disciples in to abuse Thad is not "well-constructed"), is simply the best thing available right now.
Regarding Genesis, I'm not so sure that it can sit up there with Sam, Disciples, and Gardensciples. Genesis, to me, isn't fast enough to compete with this sorts of decks. Now, I would go so far as to say that, among those of us who play a lot online (including ROOT and just casual play on RTS), nobody has more experience playing Genesis than I do. I have perhaps 60-70 games playing my own Genesis deck, not to mention playing other peoples, and I just don't think it's fast enough, even if it does have the power. It has everything that should make it work: speed on defense, a lot of searching, Dan, but I want to deconstruct that a little bit. First off, the speed on defense is largely unreliable. Yes, Pharaoh's Baker is an almost guaranteed D3 as long as it's not in the first turn or two of the game. However, The Dreaming Pharaoh is extremely unreliable for drawing, and generally won't manage more than two, unless you get lucky (or very unlucky) and you have the vast majority of your defense out at one time. Now some Genesis decks also use Swift Horses or Egyptian Horses, and these can add some speed, however, not enough to call the defense fast in my opinion, since a well-constructed Standalone will get roughly the same amount of speed (maybe a bit less) as a Genyptians deck of the same amount of cards, and Standalone will do it with more to hit with regarding actual defense (KoT, Gomer, and Haman's Plot [my Genesis deck has Uzzah, Gomer, A Slave, and Plot splashed into the Genyptians defense]).
The searching is pretty straight-forward, however, there are two cards, both of which work well in many decks if used properly, that absolutely shut down Genesis: Nazareth and Hezekiah's Signet Ring. The main thing that Genesis has going for it is the ability to get it's star hero, Joseph, out quickly. There are several cards that search for him, and in general, he can be tough to beat (the CBN addition is just crazy). That said though, if the searching gets shut down quickly enough, Genesis becomes a remarkably slow deck type, even with 7 Years of Plenty. While other decks' speed can be shut down by things like RBD, and arguably Genesis could use Captured Ark to shuffle a HSR, they still can't do anything about Nazareth if it gets out early, and other decks have better ways to deal with cards that combat their meta (Passover Hymn for Disciples and Gardensciples again RBD for instance). Thus, even though I would argue that when fully set up, Genesis is the strongest, they are too iffy, and not consistently fast enough, to justify being in the same tier as the other big deck types.
Finally, can someone please explain what the big deal about regular TGT (mostly white, with Peter and John splashed in) is? It's not that fast, they only have three viable battle winners (four when you recur He is Risen via Consider the Lilies), and I just don't see what puts it on the same level as Sam, Gardensciples, Disciples, or even Genesis. This could just be by own ignorance and I'm not getting something here, so please enlighten me.
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Finally, can someone please explain what the big deal about regular TGT (mostly white, with Peter and John splashed in) is? It's not that fast, they only have three viable battle winners (four when you recur He is Risen via Consider the Lilies), and I just don't see what puts it on the same level as Sam, Gardensciples, Disciples, or even Genesis. This could just be by own ignorance and I'm not getting something here, so please enlighten me.
It's like Tim Tebow. It's pretty bad, but it just wins.
Just kidding. I don't think it should be that high either.
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Congrats on 4444, sauce.
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Why didn't FBTNB even show up on the list? They should be A tier.
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I would actually argue that FBTNB can sit firmly in the confines of a Samuel deck. Gives it a few more options and adds a lot more speed to it.
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I haven't seen a teal/gold/green Samuel deck yet. Even so red/purple has to be better.
I would be inclined to agree with Red here, but I guess I could be proven wrong.
I haven't seen a teal/gold/green Samuel deck yet. Even so red/purple has to be better.
I am tempted to post my deck now to get your thoughts. I have no doubt in my mind that my version of Sam is better than a standard Red/Purple, but I can understand why the community wouldn't think so (since no one has really talked about that combo until this thread).
My favorite Sam-I-Am deck used Gold, Green, Purple, Red, Silver and Teal. No White or Blue though.
Sounds interesting. Must have been fun to try to fit any defense into it ;)
Finally, can someone please explain what the big deal about regular TGT (mostly white, with Peter and John splashed in) is? It's not that fast, they only have three viable battle winners (four when you recur He is Risen via Consider the Lilies), and I just don't see what puts it on the same level as Sam, Gardensciples, Disciples, or even Genesis. This could just be by own ignorance and I'm not getting something here, so please enlighten me.
It's like Tim Tebow. It's pretty bad, but it just wins.
Just kidding. I don't think it should be that high either.
I'd be ok with TGT in top of B tier.
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Why didn't FBTNB even show up on the list? They should be A tier.
FBTNb+TGT won our District on Saturday so this much is for sure - it can beat kids. :)
My favorite Sam-I-Am deck used Gold, Green, Purple, Red, Silver and Teal. No White or Blue though.
Sounds interesting. Must have been fun to try to fit any defense into it ;)
Defense? Oh, you mean that brown King Saul... ::)
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I haven't seen a teal/gold/green Samuel deck yet. Even so red/purple has to be better.
I would be inclined to agree with Red here, but I guess I could be proven wrong.
I haven't seen a teal/gold/green Samuel deck yet. Even so red/purple has to be better.
I am tempted to post my deck now to get your thoughts. I have no doubt in my mind that my version of Sam is better than a standard Red/Purple, but I can understand why the community wouldn't think so (since no one has really talked about that combo until this thread).
I've mentioned it several times before, and posted on in the TEAMS decks forum, but nobody goes there...
PM me though? I'd like to see it and how it's different than my old one.
Why didn't FBTNB even show up on the list? They should be A tier.
Because it counters the meta too perfectly and I don't want people knowing about it...
Okay, how about this:
A Tier
Samuel (all variants)
Gardenciples
FBTNB
Disciples
B Tier
Genesis
TGT
Prophets
C Tier
Mono-Red
Judges
Royalty
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Move Sam and Gardensciples up to S Tier, put FBTNB, Genesis, TGT, and Disciples in A tier.
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Move Sam and Gardensciples up to S Tier, put FBTNB, Genesis, TGT, and Disciples in A tier.
I agree. I think Genesis should be the top of A tier. FBTNB should probably be second. TGT third. Disciples there just because of Thad.
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Disciples > TGT.
That's just me though.
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Disciples > TGT.
That's just me though.
Maybe if people actually played defense.
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Judges are not C tier. Bottom of B at least. Bullet proof gideon need not be ignored.
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Judges are not C tier. Bottom of B at least. Bullet proof gideon need not be ignored.
I'm actually inclined to agree. Put Judges below Isaiah and Zeke. We need to figure out where a good Green/Teal deck would fit too.
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Judges are not C tier. Bottom of B at least. Bullet proof gideon need not be ignored.
Meh. 6/6 no SA is welcome to be bulletproof.
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Above Zeke. Zeke's too slow, Judges have Samuel, Oak, Jair. Eli's sound advice, and defense drawing. In addition judges have more CBN firepower than Zeke.
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Disciples have some power, not just Thad. MLaMG, tons of drawing, AoCP, etc.
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Above Zeke. Zeke's too slow, Judges have Samuel, Oak, Jair. Eli's sound advice, and defense drawing. In addition judges have more CBN firepower than Zeke.
Recursion of Forest Fire is, in my opinion, stronger than anything Judges have to offer.
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Disciples have some power, not just Thad. MLaMG, tons of drawing, AoCP, etc.
You just mentioned Disciples' only two reliable battle winners.
S Tier should ideally only have one in it...
S Tier
Samuel (And variants of)
Gardenciples
A Tier
Genesis
FBTNB
TGT (Just because Susie won March Madness)
Disciples (Just because Thad lost March Madness...)
B Tier
Prophets
Judges
C Tier
Mono-Red
Royalty
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TGT (Just because Susie won March Madness)
Disciples (Just because Thad lost March Madness...)
Couldn't miss an opportunity to rub salt in that particular wound, could you....
Disciples also have Phil/Bart, which win battles just by existing. A first turn Phil can be *almost* as bad as a FTM.
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Disciples have a lot more than Thad. AoCp is the best battle winner in the game, and they have nothing but interrupts. Did your opponent just play Plot? Darn it! Looks like you'll have to discard from hand and deck to make sure you still get that rescue!
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Disciples' best heroes are John, Philip/Bart, and Matthew. Thad is WAY overrated.
TGT doesn't even give your opponent a chance to block though. Plus, with a 4 character CBN chain, you'd have to pull off Writ, Charms, and CM. And then you just discard from hand and deck to make sure you still get that rescue.
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Disciples have some power, not just Thad. MLaMG, tons of drawing, AoCP, etc.
You just mentioned Disciples' only two reliable battle winners.
S Tier should ideally only have one in it...
S Tier
Samuel (And variants of)
Gardenciples
A Tier
Genesis
FBTNB
TGT (Just because Susie won March Madness)
Disciples (Just because Thad lost March Madness...)
B Tier
Prophets
Judges
C Tier
Mono-Red
Royalty
Is FBTNB really better than TGT? A TGT deck won nats, while a FBTNB got 7th. The new set did have a lot fort killers, but also a lot of CBP.
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Actually, Mark Underwood's FBTNB deck placed fourth.
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Actually, Mark Underwood's FBTNB deck placed fourth.
Still TGT won...
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It's a new year. Last year, Phillies (the most popular defense) wrecked FBTNB.
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It's a new year. Last year, Phillies (the most popular defense) wrecked FBTNB.
True, but new things like CwD, Tower of Thebez, and all the evil CBN/CBP wreck it too. IMO, TGT is better.
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Strictly speaking, nobody should be using regular TGT anyway. Gardensciples uses all the best parts of TGT and does it better.
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It's a new year. Last year, Phillies (the most popular defense) wrecked FBTNB.
True, but new things like CwD, Tower of Thebez, and all the evil CBN/CBP wreck it too. IMO, TGT is better.
Nobody uses defense, so it's all good. CwD would be the only problem, and that can be side stepped.
Strictly speaking, nobody should be using regular TGT anyway. Gardensciples uses all the best parts of TGT and does it better.
Strictly speaking, nobody should be using regular disciples anyway. Gardensciples uses all the best parts of disciples and does it better.
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Strictly speaking, nobody should be using regular disciples anyway. Gardensciples uses all the best parts of disciples and does it better.
I won't argue that Gardensciples is stronger, however, Disciples still has a lot more to offer outside of Gardensciples than TGT does outside of it. I mean, TGT essentially gains Magnificat, No Need For Spices, Lydia, and maybe a handful of other cards. Disciples, meanwhile, gains Simon the Zealot, two banding abilities (both James'), and of course, Thad (I agree that he's overrated, however, he still absolutely gets the job done).
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If you're playing TGT with No Need for Spices, and even Magnificat, you're doing something wrong. The extra cards would be geared towards dismantling a defense, or even boosting your own defense. The whole joy of TGT is that it takes less cards to pull off. Additionally, WaterGarden is TGT. WaterGarden is better than Disciples, hands down.
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On further examination I'm looking at teal/green/gold sam as equal or even better than red/purple.
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On further examination I'm looking at teal/green/gold sam as equal or even better than red/purple.
At this point, I don't think Sam variants matter. Both are S tier.
I think issue at this point is which variants of TGT (which can be vastly different) warrant A tier consideration.
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TGT/Luke=A tier
TGT/anything else=mainly B tier.
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TGT/Disciples=S Tier
TGT/Luke=A tier
TGT/anything else=mainly B tier.
TealTomb could still be A tier, IMO.
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I purposely left Gardensciples out. We have already determined it's position. I don't know too much about tealtomb being good right now...
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It's fast (Pentecost/First Fruits), wipes a defense (Zeal/Holy Unto the Lord), and has protected heroes (Phineas/Abiathar). What's not to like? Plus, U&T.
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hmm for whats it worth i think tealtomb is still gonna struggle vs a good gates deck if they get nt and female ls early but this is just my opinion and yes i know exchanger blah blah
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hmm for whats it worth i think tealtomb is still gonna struggle vs a good gates deck if they get nt and female ls early but this is just my opinion and yes i know exchanger blah blah
I think there's a good point here. TGT dies fairly easy to a good GoS deck. Of the decks listed, only Genesis and Disciples have a good number of heroes who need multiple hits to take down.
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hmm for whats it worth i think tealtomb is still gonna struggle vs a good gates deck if they get nt and female ls early but this is just my opinion and yes i know exchanger blah blah
I think there's a good point here. TGT dies fairly easy to a good GoS deck. Of the decks listed, only Genesis and Disciples have a good number of heroes who need multiple hits to take down.
Genesis gets fundamentally slaughtered by Gates more easily than any other deck listed. It's best three heroes (Joseph, Ben, and Zeb) are all taken out by Plagued with Diseases in one shot (Zeb may require Broken Cisterns or something else if the value is only */2). I debated with someone (I believe it was Alex) about this for a while. TGT gets hit hard by GoS, however, a good player will see what their opponent is doing, and keep at least a few heroes in hand (including MMoJ) for at least a rescue. If played smart, a TGT deck can definitely squeeze out a win. Gardensciples do this even better, having higher numbered heroes to help (a 1/1 Thomas? Yes please). The thing is, while Gates of Samaria looks really good on paper, it's generally too slow to really compete. Yes, you can get Gates of Samaria out via searching, but Samaria sites, if buried, or gotten much earlier than GoS, become useless. I can count on one hand the number of times I've lost to a GoS deck regardless of the size.
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Jacob and Asher get hit by GoS too. Judah will exchange for Joseph anyway...
TGT should be able to handle it. It causes problems, sure, but it's still in TGT's favor to win.
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WaterGarden is better than Disciples, hands down.
I'm interested how you come to this conclusion. There is no better WaterGarden player/deck that the one piloted by John Earley. I played against him at NC Regionals with Disciples and won, in part due to a stupid good draw and a poor draw on John's part. We played against 1st round of Nationals and John won a 5-4 game in which I made at least two crucial mistakes. If we were to play another 98 games I'm fairly confident that the end result will be approximately 50/50. All that to say that Disciples and a well designed TGT deck are on the same tier.
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WaterGarden is better than Disciples, hands down.
I'm interested how you come to this conclusion. There is no better WaterGarden player/deck that the one piloted by John Earley. I played against him at NC Regionals with Disciples and won, in part due to a stupid good draw and a poor draw on John's part. We played against 1st round of Nationals and John won a 5-4 game in which I made at least two crucial mistakes. If we were to play another 98 games I'm fairly confident that the end result will be approximately 50/50. All that to say that Disciples and a well designed TGT deck are on the same tier.
The problem with using a speed versus speed example is that it's a coin flip, as your 50/50 statement shows (which I totally agree with). However, WaterGarden has more ways of taking out characters and walking in, whereas Disciples generally relies on the meta game (Uzzah and Goliath are the only common things that could stop Philip/Bart), as it only has two reliable battle winners. Which is fine, but TGT roflstomps the meta defense too.
I guess it's not hands down like I mentioned. I just really don't like Disciples. Speed vs. Speed is a coinflip (although Water Jar can snag SoG, which is a HUGE advantage), but I believe that WaterGarden beats balanced/defensive heavy better.
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I think I have the perfect analogy, Westy. It's like how a hellion will beat a marine, but marines are still the most imbalanced and overpowered unit ever.
Yeah. Just started playing sc2 again.
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WaterGarden is better than Disciples, hands down.
I'm interested how you come to this conclusion. There is no better WaterGarden player/deck that the one piloted by John Earley. I played against him at NC Regionals with Disciples and won, in part due to a stupid good draw and a poor draw on John's part. We played against 1st round of Nationals and John won a 5-4 game in which I made at least two crucial mistakes. If we were to play another 98 games I'm fairly confident that the end result will be approximately 50/50. All that to say that Disciples and a well designed TGT deck are on the same tier.
So here we have proof that when it comes to S/A tier decks, it's not the tier, it's the player. So Alex was completely justified.
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So here we have proof that when it comes to S/A tier decks, it's not the tier, it's the player. So Alex was completely justified.
Not necessarily. The whole point of tiers is to figure out what is best when piloted to their absolute full potential.
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It still doesn't seem like there is that much separation between the decks. They can all draw well, have the power cards to blow by meta defenses, and all support sufficiently small yet effective defenses.
So once you are at S tier level its hard to say what is better..IMO this is S tier
Sam decks,
Water TGT
GardenCiples
FBTNB
Genesis locks you in on one defense and they are not super fast on offense. Straight DI seems to be outdated as pharisees don't seem to be as good with CWD around but maybe this deck is still okay in type 1, just a guess.
So, looking at my top post here are the factors/questions that I see between a successful victory and defeat in type 1:
Do I get to play Sog NJ?
Do I get to play Falling Away before my opponent draws Guardian?
Do I get to play Guardian before my opponent draw Falling Away?
Do I draw Guardian and Falling away before they draw either? (Game breaker if yes)
Do I get a good amount of Heroes to work with?
Does my opponent get an adequate number of lost souls for me to rescue?
How many blocks can I pull off?
Considering the current Meta:
Can I use CM effectively?
Can I use Burial for a block?
Will I use uzzah, Charms, Plot?
Will I get a d3 from sabbath breaker?
Will KoT be able to get an early one?
There is a little more than that that goes into a successful victory but these factors I see as being important. Therefore a S deck is one that is generally able to increase the likelyhood of a successful output in the majority of these factors and decrease opponents output. All of theses things are situational so drawing is a big help because it gives you the best chance to get them off. So an S tier deck is one that draws well.
Sam-good
DI-good
Water TGT-okay
FBTNB-okay
GardenCiples
Another thing to look at is limiting the amount of blocks an opponent can make.
Can I use CM effectively? - WTGT and GC Have HT and banding, FBTB has massive banding, Sam decks take a hit here (bp Gideon helps)
Can I use Burial for a block?- No deck can really control this much though WTGT has WaTW, samdecks may contain abigail. It really hard to get off so you just have to risk it usually.
Will I use uzzah- WTGT takes a hit here as uzzah is a sure block any way you go. Sam and GC take a hit also. FBTNB has well FBTNB so it is the best in this catagory.
Magic Charms- All decks are hurt by this but fbtnb should come out okay. gs, if they get Bart may be okay too.
UW- Same thing though FBTNB is the best at Countering this. It will usually take a combo of MC Writ and CM to bring it down.
Will I get a d3 from sabbath breaker? FBTNB does the best at stopping this.
Will KoT be able to get an early one? Tough to tell.
Hamans Plot- Hurts FBTNB the most as all other decks have HT.
And so after factoring all these things in it seems pretty even with WTGT coming in last though it has a wc in watever water jar can hit. Overall though these decks are pretty evenly matched. DI may deserve s tier too as they match up pretty well with all of these.
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I agree with most of your analysis, but you left out some very key parts here. First off, I want to elaborate more on the point of tiers. Having all of those strategies in one tier simply doesn't make sense. Gardensciples is better than WaterGarden no matter how you look at it. Will WaterGarden win games against it? Absolutely. The fact of the matter is though, that Gardensciples have more options to work with, and are the superior theme. Therefore, WaterGarden should be in a lower tier than Gardensciples. The point of "S Tier" is to have an elite handful of themes (preferably no more than two), and that means weeding out themes that are good, but simply do not stack up against the best of the best. One of the main struggles of doing this in this meta specifically is the different kinds of Sam decks that are out there, which is why we group them together collectively, since they all perform relatively similarly. I would love to see an argument as to why FBTNB cannot sit within the confines of a Sam deck. It's not viable without extra drawing, and the best way to get that drawing is to add Angel Under the Oak, Sam, and some Davids. Thus, my argument is that FBTNB should either be filed under Sam decks, or bumped down to A tier due to lack of speed. This allows the two top deck types (Sam and Gardensciples) to stand alone in S tier. Eventually we might be able to determine which of the two is better and crown a lone champion, but as it stands, I think there are people for both sides (though admittedly, Sam probably has more supporters).
Now then, I think the main flaw in your reasoning is that you've accounted for pretty much everything except the actual winning of battles on offense, which continues to support Sam decks and Gardensciples. Looking at the current defensive meta, I think that once fully set up, Gardensciples definitely have an edge over Sam. First off, because defenses are generally so small (rarely more than 10 cards), TGT itself ends up being extremely useful right now. If we're considering a standard defense (I'll say Earley's defense, and add Manny, Damsel, and Charms, for a total of nine cards), unless your opponent gets lucky and gets a lot of their defense out at the same time, using Grail will almost certainly net you a rescue, especially because of the large amount of banding from the TGT ladies, and The New Covenant being able to bring any captured ladies back, should your opponent use Charms. I mean, think about this, if you make a rescue with all four TGT ladies, and your opponent uses Writ, Charms, AND CM, you just use Herod's Temple to prevent the discard, and use The New Covenant to bring the girls back. That's it. That kind of power is simply not something that anything else in the game can offer, and using Gardensciples is fast enough to let it get set up quickly.
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Another thing to look at is limiting the amount of blocks an opponent can make.
Can I use CM effectively? - WTGT and GC Have HT and banding, FBTB has massive banding, Sam decks take a hit here (bp Gideon helps)
Can I use Burial for a block?- No deck can really control this much though WTGT has WaTW, samdecks may contain abigail. It really hard to get off so you just have to risk it usually.
Will I use uzzah- WTGT takes a hit here as uzzah is a sure block any way you go. Sam and GC take a hit also. FBTNB has well FBTNB so it is the best in this catagory.
Magic Charms- All decks are hurt by this but fbtnb should come out okay. gs, if they get Bart may be okay too.
UW- Same thing though FBTNB is the best at Countering this. It will usually take a combo of MC Writ and CM to bring it down.
Will I get a d3 from sabbath breaker? FBTNB does the best at stopping this.
Will KoT be able to get an early one? Tough to tell.
Hamans Plot- Hurts FBTNB the most as all other decks have HT.
Sam has enough banding to get around CM. Burial is often sidestepped by soul generation, which I guess is still a risk. WaterGarden doesn't let Uzzah block (the most brown anybody uses is 4, and nobody is going to put Uzzah in a territory, so Holy Grail takes care of it, with AotL, Water Jar, and Meeting the Messiah as safeguards). Sam has Abigail and/or Moses to get around it, but it's weak.
Charms is tough. UW is sidestepped by banding, which all of them have.
SB is overrated.
Plot kills Sam too.
too big of post...just read his...
With a tier that big, I would lump them all into A tier, and just not have an S. Just because one is a superior theme doesn't mean it should be in a completely different tier. The fact is, WaterGarden does some things better than Gardenciples, and vice versa. FBTNB often does Teal, which is better than Sam. Additionally, FBTNB doesn't need as much speed due to using more heroes, which makes Mayhem more efficient as well. Not as fast, but a better meta counter. Nobody is arguing FBTNB is better than Sam, just that they're in the same tier. There's no way they belong in the same tier as Prophets and Judges. Look at both sides of the equation. Both win generally easy, and thus belong in the same tier. Prophets and Judges have to work a little harder, and are thus a tier lower.
Now then, I think the main flaw in your reasoning is that you've accounted for pretty much everything except the actual winning of battles on offense, which continues to support Sam decks and Gardensciples. Looking at the current defensive meta, I think that once fully set up, Gardensciples definitely have an edge over Sam. First off, because defenses are generally so small (rarely more than 10 cards), TGT itself ends up being extremely useful right now. If we're considering a standard defense (I'll say Earley's defense, and add Manny, Damsel, and Charms, for a total of nine cards), unless your opponent gets lucky and gets a lot of their defense out at the same time, using Grail will almost certainly net you a rescue, especially because of the large amount of banding from the TGT ladies, and The New Covenant being able to bring any captured ladies back, should your opponent use Charms. I mean, think about this, if you make a rescue with all four TGT ladies, and your opponent uses Writ, Charms, AND CM, you just use Herod's Temple to prevent the discard, and use The New Covenant to bring the girls back. That's it. That kind of power is simply not something that anything else in the game can offer, and using Gardensciples is fast enough to let it get set up quickly.
Sam sets up quicker than Gardenciples though, and thus gets the edge IMO.
A Tier
Sam
Gardenciples
WaterGarden
FBTNB
I'm not sure where I'd put mono-white...
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Sam sets up quicker, but uses card slots to do so. Said card slots are used for more powerful cards in Gardenciples. While a quick setup is useful, there have been a significant amount of times when I was using a Sam deck and wished for the endgame power of Disciples.
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Fbtnb is not A-tier. I've personally ran and topped with Fbtnb for many, many years and know the ins and outs of the deck. Its glaring weakness is probably the most important factor that Hobbit touched upon in todays meta...draw power/speed. I understand this may have changed a bit by the new red hero that draws, but this gain towards the deck as a whole has been minimal at best, and has benefited other archetypes far better (as proven in Sams). Mayhem is also a great drop as the deck can clear hands easily, but other decks have so much more draw power/searching/etc that they can easily outpace the deck unless Fbtnb gets a marginally great hand. Fbtnb is better than most other archetypes, but not better than TGT/Di/Sams, therefore its proper spot is Tier 1.5.
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Sam sets up quicker, but uses card slots to do so. Said card slots are used for more powerful cards in Gardenciples. While a quick setup is useful, there have been a significant amount of times when I was using a Sam deck and wished for the endgame power of Disciples.
Disciples? Endgame power? They have two battlewinners. Their endgame is terrible, they just draw quickly and walk in. Gardenciples has endgame power due to TGT, but let's keep these things straight here...
It's really hard to say which is better at this point. I'm giving it to Sam just because of it's speed and CBN power.
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Sam sets up quicker, but uses card slots to do so. Said card slots are used for more powerful cards in Gardenciples. While a quick setup is useful, there have been a significant amount of times when I was using a Sam deck and wished for the endgame power of Disciples.
Disciples? Endgame power? They have two battlewinners. Their endgame is terrible, they just draw quickly and walk in. Gardenciples has endgame power due to TGT, but let's keep these things straight here...
It's really hard to say which is better at this point. I'm giving it to Sam just because of it's speed and CBN power.
Straight Disciples have the best end-game of any theme due to Thad. Backed by The New Covenant, there's nothing that matches that kind of power at the end of a game.
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"I'm an 8/8 hero..."
"Cool, I block with a */10 evil character."
"Oh...well...good game?"
Philip/Bart is much better. You can just heal if they're discarded, and they can't be captured, as well has having huge CBN banding.
Sam has the same situation with Aaron/Moses.
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"I'm an 8/8 hero..."
"Cool, I block with a */10 evil character."
"Oh...well...good game?"
Philip/Bart is much better. You can just heal if they're discarded, and they can't be captured, as well has having huge CBN banding.
Sam has the same situation with Aaron/Moses.
CoT helps with that one, and if you're running straight Di without it, I won't feel sorry for you when you lose.
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"I'm an 8/8 hero..."
"Cool, I block with a */10 evil character."
"Oh...well...good game?"
Philip/Bart is much better. You can just heal if they're discarded, and they can't be captured, as well has having huge CBN banding.
Sam has the same situation with Aaron/Moses.
You're not really helping your argument much. Even when Disciples do lack in an area, they have something else to make up for it...
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The problem with this thread is there has been no discussion of deck building oppurtunity costs. As a resident Economics major, I have now taken it upon myself to produce such an analysis. Expect it to come up sometime by the end of this weekend.
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"I'm an 8/8 hero..."
"Cool, I block with a */10 evil character."
"Oh...well...good game?"
Philip/Bart is much better. You can just heal if they're discarded, and they can't be captured, as well has having huge CBN banding.
Sam has the same situation with Aaron/Moses.
You're not really helping your argument much. Even when Disciples do lack in an area, they have something else to make up for it...
I was making your argument stronger so that mine would be a better comparison. You have yet to comment on Aaron/Moses.
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I don't there's much of a comment to make. Aaron/Moses is strong; arguably the strongest two hero band in the game. Phil/Bart gains the advantage of capture protection, but Moses negates special abilities. I'd argue that Aaron/Moses is slightly more vulnerable in the mid-game from things like Plot, Writ, or Charms, but I'd rather have them in the end game.
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Define end game. When you are about to win? Or when both players are close to, or have decked out. If you have decked out and are close to winning, does that mean end game? Now what if your opponent has a solid deck left with plenty of defense? End game is too opinionated.
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"About to win" doesn't work as a definition because it doesn't matter what you have when you're about to win. I'd argue the end game is one or both players have 10> cards in their deck and the game is still close.
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The problem with this thread is there has been no discussion of deck building oppurtunity costs. As a resident Economics major, I have now taken it upon myself to produce such an analysis. Expect it to come up sometime by the end of this weekend.
...it's past the end of that weekend. :)
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The problem with this thread is there has been no discussion of deck building oppurtunity costs. As a resident Economics major, I have now taken it upon myself to produce such an analysis. Expect it to come up sometime by the end of this weekend.
...it's past the end of that weekend. :)
*lazy* Oops.
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Define end game. When you are about to win? Or when both players are close to, or have decked out. If you have decked out and are close to winning, does that mean end game? Now what if your opponent has a solid deck left with plenty of defense? End game is too opinionated.
I would define "End-game" as: when your deck is about to end the game. Think of it as follow through, giving a good, quick start and ending in the same way: Quickly and powerfully.
This is only an opinion, so please treat it that way.
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End game is too opinionated.
This is only an opinion, so please treat it that way.
;)