Author Topic: Scrambled Eggs with Pepper (Read 5539 times)

sk · « **on:** July 10, 2012, 12:18:43 AM »

Since Samuel is king, it was intended to deal with those decks specifically, but I wouldn't want it to flop elsewhere because it's too targeted.

Cards: 56 (goal is 51-56)

Female Only
NT Only
*/4 Only
First Round Protect
NT Shuffler
Revealer
Withdraw

Son of God
New Jerusalem
Angel of the Lord
Grapes of Wrath
~~Harvest Time~~ Falling Away
Burial
Christian Martyr

Asherah Pole
Household Idols
~~I Am Healing~~ Chariot of Fire
Rain Becomes Dust ~~Gifts of the Magi~~
The New Covenant
U + T

The Garden Tomb
Mary Mother of James
Salome
Mary Magdalene
Joanna
Susanna
He is Risen
No Need for Spices
Consider the Lilies
Words of Encouragement

Generous Widow
Good Samaritan
Lazarus
Simeon
Watchful Servant
Kindness
Meeting the Messiah
Battle Prayer

~~Miriam~~ Gabriel (Di)

Alexander
Disbelieving Sadducees
HP Annas
HP Caiaphas
Sadducees x4
Scribe
Goliath
~~Herod the Great~~ Philistine Armorbearer
Devourer
Hunger
Joseph in Prison
Just a Hireling
Pride of Simon
Wrath of Satan

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2012, 12:36:19 AM »

I'd drop:
Shuffler (Can easily backfire)
Golden Calf (most are CBN abilities)
Repentance and Restitution
Convincing Miracle
Martha
The Master's Table
Three Nails

And switch:
Brass Serpent for I am Healing. Brass Serpent heals ALL heroes, including opponents, so after a Wrath it's quite pointless.

sk · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2012, 10:35:22 AM »

I like all of those suggestions. Thanks. Updated.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2012, 01:43:47 PM »

You chose an interesting name for this thread.

sk · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2012, 02:37:37 PM »

I have to credit Kurt Hake for that, who named it based on the brigades of an earlier version of this deck he helped me design.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2012, 03:01:55 PM »

Y not take out I am healing for chariots of fire? Just a thought

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2012, 05:13:49 PM »

Quote from: sk on July 10, 2012, 02:37:37 PM

I have to credit Kurt Hake for that, who named it based on the brigades of an earlier version of this deck he helped me design.

White, gold, and black? Interesting...

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2012, 08:25:21 PM »

Couple of things I noticed:

Healing
There's no point in having all of that healing, especially since it won't be there when you need it.

The New Covenant is just about worthless used as an artifact because:

You have to have it activated instead of something more useful.
It is vulnerable while active.
If you don't have it activated before battle (and see 1 and 2 about why that's no help at all), you won't be able to use it to save anyone discarded during your rescue attempt since you can't activate it during the discard phase.

And since you have no Purple, you can't play it out of battle. Therefore, it's a waste of a card slot in this deck.

I am Healing is not very useful to you because:

If you decide to use it as an artifact, you have the same opportunity cost and vulnerability you have with The New Covenant (#1-3 above).
If you play it as a healing card from hand, you can only use it once (since you better not waste your recur on that...).

There are better cards for this purpose.

I think you're overestimating the value of healing. You have to have the card on the turn the character is discarded (you cannot heal anyone who was discarded in a previous turn), but if you don't have useful characters getting discarded, having these cards is overkill. And in fact, it's hurting your speed and clogging your hand more games than not (a lot more). And you don't have any cards to bring back characters that got sniped when you couldn't heal them.

What you actually need is to add a Chariot of Fire for sure. That card is a necessity if you're looking to get your heroes back. The idea that you'll either have a card like I Am Healing active (again, bad idea) or in your hand when you play Wrath of Stan is not the kind of thing that will happen often at all, and you'll just clog your hand waiting to pull off the combo. The odds are excellent that Wrath will get negated (A-Pole is nice and all, but you won't have it when you need it), and minute that you'll pull off what you want to do. And, if you manage to get Wrath off, Chariot is the best way to get your heroes back just because you'll eventually get a hold of it and the odds of getting it to work for at least one turn are decent.

Basic point on Healing cards: Drop them and get Chariot.
Artifact Pile
Besides my recommendation to add Chariot (and remove the healing covenants), I have a couple of ideas here.

For your Anti-Drawing needs, I would remove RBD and instead put in Gifts for the following reasons:

They'll just avoid using drawing (most of it is a "may" anyway), but Gifts will let you take advantage as well. A first-turn Gifts can hurt your opponent more than a first-turn RBD in T1.
RBD has more cards gunning for it than Gifts. Curses are more squishy than artifacts.
RBD gives you zero use off of TGW. Gifts gives you a lot of use off of TGW and makes her far more powerful (and your other forced draws).

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2012, 08:25:38 PM »

I'd seriously consider removing Urim and Thummim.
I understand the hilarity of using it off of Annas and Caiaphas, and that it is an immensely powerful card, but it is not as helpful.

Evil Characters are very, very squishy (especially unique ones). You cannot recur them, and they're big and ready to be killed off by your own cards or because they granted initiative in battle.
When (not if) they die (if they even come out), you'll have a relatively useless artifact in that you can't activate something else and it loses the best part of its ability (being essentially untouchable).

It is just not very good with synergy for this deck, and you could have better cards put in instead.

I would add in Samaritan Water Jar.

It is one of the best Soul Gen cards in the game.
Watching the unique characters that hold your deck together or your SoG sitting in set-aside is very, very disheartening.
You already have 2 Samaritans, and it still has a use even if they aren't out (just reduced).
Your opponent cannot stop it once you activate it.
It gives you more use out of Watchful Servant and allows it to be useful earlier in the game.

It is an excellent card to add to any deck with Samaritans in it, and I'd definitely put it in. It will give you souls to rescue, hurt your opponent's deck, and get your Watchful Servant a lot more use. It has a lot more synergy with your deck than you think.

Add Unholy Writ.

Incredibly useful card (especially against Sam decks, if that's what you're fighting).
You can put it in High Priest's Palace and still activate a different artifact, giving it some more versatility.

Consider HHI and what it does to your deck (Mary the Mother of James and Simeon). Not saying to remove it, just make sure you understand if it'll hurt you too much.
Enhancements

Put back in Repentance and Restitution!

You currently have 3 Luke heroes. You're not necessarily going to have a problem using it.
It is CBN by evil cards, which is huge. CBN battle-winners are in short supply in this deck...as in not there currently.
It allows you to draw off of Gifts.

Questioning Christ is a great option for stopping any non-CBI battle winner (and there are plenty of times it will be useful, especially against White). Tenants Kill the Son is also excellent for its interrupting stopping power, and is still useful against FBTN. These are good considerations, especially versus options like Devourer and JiP. I'd recommend just reexamining your defensive enhancement choices and getting more bang for your buck in general.

Characters

First, on your question about 12FG and withdraw, that is not a withdraw ability. Just negating the band does not result in withdraw, it is as if the character never entered the battle.

I would remove Miriam.

You have no enhancements for her.
She is only useful in one specific case against one brigade.
Her numbers are not big enough to justify her just for the band (which is not CBN).

If your only reasons for having her is that she bands with Simeon and that she ignores Gold brigade, then she is not worth it. There are better cards that you can put in, so you should take her out.

Add Gabriel (Disciples version).

You can band him in off of He Is Risen.
You can recur Consider the Lilies (which you then use to recur He Is Risen for a repeatable recur of the most powerful non-CBN card in the game), Repentance and Restitution (your only CBN battle-winner), and Kindness.
When worse comes to worse, he has enough offense to get past many decks with Mutual Destruction, as many battle-winners only target humans and he has 10 strength.
Simeon can band to him for numbers and the ability to play your enhancements...which Gabriel just added to your hand.

Tremendous synergy with your deck, and gives you multiple chances to use the most powerful cards in your deck.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:08:20 PM »

I agree and disagree with you on some points, Redoubter.

I am Healing isn't for activation. It's purpose is exactly the same as Brass Serpent, but needs a gold hero, but doesn't heal their guys.

I assume A New Covenant is more for capture control than for healing.

Chariot doesn't need to be in here because massive discarding just isn't that popular anymore. You may want an FSP to play A New Covenant on for endgame infinite healing, but otherwise I just don't see anybody discarding MMOJ, Joanna, Salome, and Mary Mag. Maybe a few here and there, but I honestly think healing is better right now because they can't CM your MMOJ in territory to cause all sorts of problems. You can either activate ANC or use I am Healing to save her.

As a player who's been playing Sam all year, nothing is more annoying than RBD (except perhaps Nazzy, which you could also consider). I'd leave it in there.

Samaritan Water Jar would definitely be a good add. I'm not sure how I missed that. I wouldn't take out U&T for it just because Annas and Caiaphus can survive just fine sitting in the territory, though I might say add a CP/HPP+Writ to protect massive discard. I'm a big U&T fanboy though, so I'm quite biased on this.

The problem with adding Writ is that capture protection is rampant. If you can fit it in there, great, but I wouldn't break my back for it. If you do add HPPalace, definitely add it in though.

My problems with R&R is A. He doesn't have Gifts in there right now, and I don't see him needing to add it. B. The metagame hates it. Your opponent wants to draw cards, and a D4 is worth losing a soul over (plus dominant blocks). Furthermore, there really aren't any oft used humans that check his offense. MTM can nail them in territory.

Miriam should definitely come out for Gabriel (Di). I understand playing to the local meta, but Gabriel should be in this deck.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on July 10, 2012, 09:08:20 PM

I assume A New Covenant is more for capture control than for healing.

If you want capture control, the better option is obviously:
Covenant of Palestine
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Return all Heroes in all Lands of Bondage to owners' territories. Capture of Heroes is prevented.

If you aren't using your own capture (and don't add Unholy Writ), this card not only returns your heroes to you, but it prevents those abilities your opponent uses (including Writ). Also, it doesn't remove itself from play, allowing you to use it again if needed without drawing out your deck, and it is actually useful activated (unlike The New Covenant).

Quote from: Ring Wraith on July 10, 2012, 09:08:20 PM

Chariot doesn't need to be in here because massive discarding just isn't that popular anymore.

I disagree. I used to think the same way you do, but I lost a game 5-4 after leading 4-1 because of massive discards and negates on the other side. Had I been able to recur any of the heroes discarded by those abilities, I would have won the game easily. It cost me the opportunity to compete in that tournament.

Every deck needs a Chariot. You will not always have the ability to heal the turn the characters are discarded, and plenty of people do still run Black decks with Wrath (*points to this one*), Hunger, Great Image and so on. You will hit those decks in a tournament, and risking it will cost you a chance to place. It has for me.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on July 10, 2012, 09:08:20 PM

As a player who's been playing Sam all year, nothing is more annoying than RBD (except perhaps Nazzy, which you could also consider). I'd leave it in there.

The problem with drawing while Gifts is up (and you don't have it) is that your opponent is benefiting more than you. If the object of T1 is to race through your deck the fastest, then Gifts is the best way to go, especially if you are playing Samaritans (more below), because you gain card advantage incredibly quickly and can dominate the race without a problem. And again, Gifts is hardier than RBD (by a long shot).

Quote from: Ring Wraith on July 10, 2012, 09:08:20 PM

The problem with adding Writ is that capture protection is rampant. If you can fit it in there, great, but I wouldn't break my back for it. If you do add HPPalace, definitely add it in though.

Sure it is, but for what characters? The meta protections are Ahimelek and Bart, and only Ahimelek is in Sam decks. Funny thing is, he doesn't protect Sam, as he only protects WC heroes. That leaves the lynchpin of the offense a juicy Writ target. And you can't get him back once he's Redeemed.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on July 10, 2012, 09:08:20 PM

My problems with R&R is A. He doesn't have Gifts in there right now, and I don't see him needing to add it. B. The metagame hates it. Your opponent wants to draw cards, and a D4 is worth losing a soul over (plus dominant blocks). Furthermore, there really aren't any oft used humans that check his offense. MTM can nail them in territory.

First, Gifts is a necessity in this deck. And as I pointed out above, using Gifts and taking advantage of this forced drawing will allow you to gain card advantage over your opponent (as pointed out above), as well as give you Watchful Servant power. Remember that Gabriel can recur Repentance and Restitution, allowing you to quickly deck your opponent while still drawing out yours. Win-Win.

Drrek · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM

If you want capture control, the better option is obviously:
Covenant of Palestine
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Return all Heroes in all Lands of Bondage to owners' territories. Capture of Heroes is prevented.

In my opinion better option to stop capture than Covenant of Palestine is Blue Tassels, as that protects characters from capture, which is much more powerful at stopping capture than preventing it.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM

Every deck needs a Chariot.

I strongly disagree with this. A deck with enough heroes will really often need neither Chariot or healing. With healing included, Chariot can be just redundant (though it makes good uzzah fuel, and as a side note, Uzzah and Am Slave should be in this deck)

I don't understand why no one is pointing out the option of both RBD and Gifts being in the deck, both are incredibly useful cards.

Also, I would add Twelve-Fingered Giant to this deck (especially if you are trying to stop Sam decks specifically).

Writ's not as good a card in my opinion anymore, and often not worth the add, mostly because a significant portion of decks use large amounts of banding.

Also, I would remove CM for FA, for the same reason I'm hesitant to add writ anymore. FA completely stops any rescue, as long as your opponent doesn't already have up Guardian which not every deck even uses any more, whereas CM only stops rescues when there is a single character in battle.

Redoubter · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2012, 10:31:32 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM

If you want capture control, the better option is obviously:
Covenant of Palestine
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Return all Heroes in all Lands of Bondage to owners' territories. Capture of Heroes is prevented.

In my opinion better option to stop capture than Covenant of Palestine is Blue Tassels, as that protects characters from capture, which is much more powerful at stopping capture than preventing it.

Except you have to have Blue Tassels up instead of a more useful artifact, and it only prevents capture (just like CWP does in part) without returning those characters to territory. It can't be reactive to a capture, and you have to have it active constantly, and it doesn't stop CBP or CBN captures.

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM
Every deck needs a Chariot.

I strongly disagree with this. A deck with enough heroes will really often need neither Chariot or healing. With healing included, Chariot can be just redundant (though it makes good uzzah fuel, and as a side note, Uzzah and Am Slave should be in this deck)

And again I strongly disagree with this. As with the first part of this post, you need cards that are reactive. If you cannot stop something that happened in a previous turn, the card is useless if you draw it after the fact. This is why CWD is better than Blue Tassels and Chariot is better than healing.

Also, you haven't had my situation happen to you (yet), but it is very easy to happen and it can definitely lose you the game. A healing card would be no use at all, which is why a card like Chariot is superior (and necessary).

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM

I don't understand why no one is pointing out the option of both RBD and Gifts being in the deck, both are incredibly useful cards.

Deck size, and trying to cut cards. Gifts is more useful than RBD, and when you're trying to get down the more useful card should be added and not the less.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2012, 10:35:17 PM »

I've said what I need to say, but one last thing

A New Covenant is more versatile than CoP. The main thing I see with this deck is MMOJ+The Others, and because of that keeping MMOJ alive is important. If they CM in territory, no problem. If they capture her, you don't want them DoNing your CoP/BT. Not many use DoN, but many should...

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #14 on:** July 11, 2012, 08:53:04 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on July 10, 2012, 10:35:17 PM

I've said what I need to say, but one last thing

A New Covenant is more versatile than CoP. The main thing I see with this deck is MMOJ+The Others, and because of that keeping MMOJ alive is important. If they CM in territory, no problem. If they capture her, you don't want them DoNing your CoP/BT. Not many use DoN, but many should...

Not many use DoN? That's news to me...

Red · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2012, 10:31:19 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 10:31:32 PM

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM
Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM

If you want capture control, the better option is obviously:
Covenant of Palestine
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Return all Heroes in all Lands of Bondage to owners' territories. Capture of Heroes is prevented.

In my opinion better option to stop capture than Covenant of Palestine is Blue Tassels, as that protects characters from capture, which is much more powerful at stopping capture than preventing it.

Except you have to have Blue Tassels up instead of a more useful artifact, and it only prevents capture (just like CWP does in part) without returning those characters to territory. It can't be reactive to a capture, and you have to have it active constantly, and it doesn't stop CBP or CBN captures.

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM
Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM
Every deck needs a Chariot.

I strongly disagree with this. A deck with enough heroes will really often need neither Chariot or healing. With healing included, Chariot can be just redundant (though it makes good uzzah fuel, and as a side note, Uzzah and Am Slave should be in this deck)

And again I strongly disagree with this. As with the first part of this post, you need cards that are reactive. If you cannot stop something that happened in a previous turn, the card is useless if you draw it after the fact. This is why CWD is better than Blue Tassels and Chariot is better than healing.

Also, you haven't had my situation happen to you (yet), but it is very easy to happen and it can definitely lose you the game. A healing card would be no use at all, which is why a card like Chariot is superior (and necessary).

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM
I don't understand why no one is pointing out the option of both RBD and Gifts being in the deck, both are incredibly useful cards.

Deck size, and trying to cut cards. Gifts is more useful than RBD, and when you're trying to get down the more useful card should be added and not the less.

You can heal anytime a hero is being discarded from play or set aside. Healing is better than Chariot atm. Also Gifts is by no means better than RBD if the deck is fast enough.

sk · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2012, 02:26:06 PM »

I appreciate all the feedback.

Healing
Two healing cards was mostly to ensure I had one when I use Wrath of Satan.
In experience, this deck has hidden souls so well that their attacks were just to draw, and I was more than happy for them to provide free souls, so Wrath hasn’t even been used yet, as Hunger often does the trick.

I really like A New Covenant’s repeatability and versatility. Also, since Covenant of Palestine doesn’t work if capture is CBN, ANC isn’t much better, except vs UW, which they will just wait to use to clog my art pile when HHI or RBD/Gifts are needed. I’d rather include DoN or an evil art discard, but even then, I can band when it’s up. MMoJ is the only issue, and I should have 2-3 others to finish the battle, then could use ANC next turn. That being said, Babylonians are about the only real threat for capture, and I doubt I’ll face them.

Chariot of Fire is great, but it’s a DoN magnet. Perhaps drop IAH for CoF and have ANC as backup and capture return?

Increasing Speed
Since a piece of my strategy is to hide souls in my deck, do I really want the speed boost? Between CoF, Susanna, and their Drawn Sword stuffing my deck, I could slow things while they draw out, leaving Watchful Servant to do its thing while they’re stuck waiting for souls.

If I try to keep up, what if Gifts never shows or gets a quick d/c? I can’t even try to keep up with a Samuel deck after it goes. (Of course, once DoN is gone, HHI could run the show while I use some gold or individual TGT characters.) Thoughts?

Christian Martyr -> Falling Away
While it won’t win me a battle against Samuel, it would in almost any other game. it could discard a pesky character with Foreign Sword, although A Soldier’s Prayer would easily recur it. I guess you’ve convinced me, unless Harvest Time would be a better loss.

Miriam -> Gabriel
Love this addition. A piece of me still wants Miriam for an easy soul, but the recursion, not to mention the theme synergy, are superb.

U + T
It’s so nice to see what battle winner they will use to defend. Extremely valuable. I have one of the HPs in territory often enough, and Sam has little territory destruction (just return to hand or deck that will resent next turn). I have no cards that would hurt them, just convert, which, if I had to use on myself, keeps him in territory, gives me cards to draw, and can be healed.

High Priests Palace
It doesn’t do much on its own except vs AoC, and Foreign Sword will just send it to hand if Unholy Writ is active. Sam has no territory destruction that HPP/CP would stop. Should I fear an archer or Crown of Thorns?

Foreign Sword
I’m realizing that this card may be the real problem. Is there a way to deal with it in my brigades? Possibly even steal it for Goliath to troll?

12 Fingered Giant
I would rather have a withdraw character to trigger the Withdraw LS. Sam is CBN, leaving two characters with 2-3 brigades and free initiative -- not much better. I have HHI to deal with bands, unless DoN is saved for that. Herod is basically a suicide block that might burn an enhancement to help them survive. If Herod is too interruptible, I would rather have Philistine Armorbearer to recur Goliath, which does both Herod and Twelve Fingered’s abilities in one.

Samaritan Water Jar
I’m tempted to add this in place of Harvest Time. That would also allow for both CM and FA. within the dominant cap

Questioning Christ’s Authority
A good add, but where? Should I drop an EC?

Tenants Kill the Son
Only kills one. It’d be better to have a mass killer.

Potential Issues:
Ends of the Earth (I currently have no site access)

Drrek · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2012, 02:31:06 PM »

Quote from: sk on July 11, 2012, 02:26:06 PM

Christian Martyr -> Falling Away
While it won’t win me a battle against Samuel, it would in almost any other game. it could discard a pesky character with Foreign Sword, although A Soldier’s Prayer would easily recur it. I guess you’ve convinced me, unless Harvest Time would be a better loss.

Sam will always have a band, TGT uses the mass ladies band, Disciples has many bands (Phil/Bart, James/Thad, James/John), genesis has Joseph protected from discard (and he's actually very, very easy to get out and recur). Those are probably the four most used offenses, and against all of them I find FA more useful than CM.

I also would use FA over Harvest Time, if you'd rather cut that.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2012, 02:36:14 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on July 11, 2012, 02:31:06 PM

Quote from: sk on July 11, 2012, 02:26:06 PM

Christian Martyr -> Falling Away
While it won’t win me a battle against Samuel, it would in almost any other game. it could discard a pesky character with Foreign Sword, although A Soldier’s Prayer would easily recur it. I guess you’ve convinced me, unless Harvest Time would be a better loss.

Sam will always have a band, TGT uses the mass ladies band, Disciples has many bands (Phil/Bart, James/Thad, James/John), genesis has Joseph protected from discard (and he's actually very, very easy to get out and recur). Those are probably the four most used offenses, and against all of them I find FA more useful than CM.

I also would use FA over Harvest Time, if you'd rather cut that.

I wouldn't use FA. Your deck simply isn't fast enough to utilize it well, and most decks will have Lampy/Guardian by the time you get it. Because you use defense, CM is actually quite good, as you can pick off an annoying character (like one with Foreign Sword on it) and let your defense clean up.

Redoubter · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2012, 09:23:46 PM »

Quote from: Red on July 11, 2012, 10:31:19 AM

You can heal anytime a hero is being discarded from play or set aside. Healing is better than Chariot atm.

It is most certainly not. First, New Covenant (not even the best for what you want) cannot be played from hand to heal in this deck. Second, if you don't have the healing card, it can do nothing to help you. If you don't have Chariot, you can still return the hero just by drawing it later. DoN is not as scary (given the dom cap) and you have PLENTY of other artifacts in there as well.

Also, if you're trying to hide souls in your deck, what better way than by shuffling a bunch of heroes back in and making it bigger?

Quote from: sk on July 11, 2012, 02:26:06 PM

I really like A New Covenant’s repeatability and versatility. Also, since Covenant of Palestine doesn’t work if capture is CBN, ANC isn’t much better, except vs UW, which they will just wait to use to clog my art pile when HHI or RBD/Gifts are needed.

The New Covenant is actually worse on all counts. Every single reason you just gave are for Covenant of Palestine.

The New Covenant
At any time, you may place this card beneath your deck to heal all N.T. Heroes, return all captured N.T. Heroes to territory, or discard all evil cards on N.T. Heroes.

Covenant of Palestine
Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Return all Heroes in all Lands of Bondage to owners' territories. Capture of Heroes is prevented.

Ease of Use
Okay, first, neither can be played from your hand.
Point: None

Opportunity Cost
Since neither can be played from hand, the one with the better ability to have active is Covenant of Palestine as far as capture goes. Only CBP capture will work at all, and it still returns those characters to your territory on the next activation. It actually has a use in stopping capture while active. TNC does not.
Point: CoP

Repeatability
You seem to think that CoP is not repeatable, but it doesn't bottom-deck itself. If you're going slow on purpose, you're not going to see TNC again for a long, long time. CoP, however, is a good boy and stays in your territory for another go if needed.
Point: CoP

Preventing Capture
Your point that CoP doesn't stop CBP capture doesn't mean as much when you consider that TNC can't prevent capture. It still has a use in this.
Point: CoP

So really, as far as anti-capture goes, the best card for the purpose is CoP. TNC is cumbersome to use, removes itself from play and forces you to draw it again, and is overall not as useful in this situation. And as I pointed out, healing cards can't do a thing unless they are active during the turn someone is discarded, and TNC is really useless sitting active (especially since you have better cards to use, as you even pointed out).

Use CoP if you're afraid of capture, and use Chariot if you're afraid of discard, and you'll be perfectly fine.

pilgrim14 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2012, 06:57:34 PM »

I would swap the first round protect LS for the CBP LS.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #21 on:** August 21, 2012, 11:14:15 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM
Quote from: Redoubter on July 10, 2012, 09:24:36 PM
Every deck needs a Chariot.

I strongly disagree with this. A deck with enough heroes will really often need neither Chariot or healing. With healing included, Chariot can be just redundant (though it makes good uzzah fuel, and as a side note, Uzzah and Am Slave should be in this deck)

And again I strongly disagree with this. As with the first part of this post, you need cards that are reactive. If you cannot stop something that happened in a previous turn, the card is useless if you draw it after the fact. This is why CWD is better than Blue Tassels and Chariot is better than healing.

Also, you haven't had my situation happen to you (yet), but it is very easy to happen and it can definitely lose you the game. A healing card would be no use at all, which is why a card like Chariot is superior (and necessary).

I find that players often fall in one of two camps: the pro-Chariot camp or the "it's a wasted card slot" camp. The game of Redemption is all about maximizing the resources (cards) that you have in your deck. I have honed my playstyle over the years where I play aggressive but take calculated risks. I specifically use CoF in herolite decks and decks where I abuse Gabriel use and want to keep getting him back, along with a couple other annoying heroes. I have gone up against plenty of 154 card defense heavy decks or 63/70/etc card defense decks that use Great Image, Wrath, Hunger, etc and have never once found myself in need of Chariot of Fire in a deck other than the few instances I referenced in my previous sentence.

It's all about playstyle. I definitely recommend Chariot of Fire to newer players because they don't know all of the cards in the game like the back of their hand yet and may make a costly mistake. If you find it a good card to use, then use it by all means. I just wanted to chime in that I have placed in T1 at many regional tournaments and taken 4th at nationals and don't think CoF is necessary.

Quote from: Redoubter

Quote from: Drrek on July 10, 2012, 10:18:14 PM
I don't understand why no one is pointing out the option of both RBD and Gifts being in the deck, both are incredibly useful cards.

Deck size, and trying to cut cards. Gifts is more useful than RBD, and when you're trying to get down the more useful card should be added and not the less.

From the perspective of a defensive player I think it can be more valuable to slow your opponent down and progress more slowly yourself rather than racing through your deck. Now if you are playing Watchful Servant you want them to breeze through. If they speed through they also will have to potentially discard more battle winners and defense (if they have any) along the way.

Also RBD actually sticks around longer than Gifts now too because Balaam can recur it. I am not aware of any way to recur Gifts.

Quote from: Redoubter

The New Covenant is actually worse on all counts. Every single reason you just gave are for Covenant of Palestine.

The New Covenant
At any time, you may place this card beneath your deck to heal all N.T. Heroes, return all captured N.T. Heroes to territory, or discard all evil cards on N.T. Heroes.

Covenant of Palestine
Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Return all Heroes in all Lands of Bondage to owners' territories. Capture of Heroes is prevented.

Ease of Use
Okay, first, neither can be played from your hand.

You can play TNC from hand on a purple hero in territory.

Kirk

sk · « **Reply #22 on:** August 21, 2012, 12:11:32 PM »

Looks like I never posted the results. I've gone 7-3 with this deck.

One loss was to a defenseless Samuel deck because I had RBD on the first turn, so he drew slowly and thus had a soul drought. (I might need Malchus.) Another loss was to a Z's temple/Babylon deck that stalled well with R-Camp until I was out of soul manipulation. (CoP has since been added.) For the third, I was simply outplayed.

CoF was only used once. Having to wait for my heroes to return simply doesn't work when I'm racing. I know it should be useful, but the game has become too fast for it. I may keep it for those 70+ decks, but adding John for TNC might be a better fit.

Josh · « **Reply #23 on:** August 21, 2012, 12:25:58 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 21, 2012, 11:14:15 AM

You can play TNC from hand on a purple hero in territory.

Kirk

Only to heal - Redoubter was comparing ANC's ability to recover from capture with CoP's, I believe.

Red · « **Reply #24 on:** August 21, 2012, 01:11:16 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on August 21, 2012, 12:25:58 PM

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 21, 2012, 11:14:15 AM

You can play TNC from hand on a purple hero in territory.

Kirk

Only to heal - Redoubter was comparing ANC's ability to recover from capture with CoP's, I believe.

The heal and capture returning happen together or commas actually mean something in Redemption.

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