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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 1 Deck Advice => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on January 14, 2012, 12:16:28 PM
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This is pretty basic Genesis, but I haven't gotten to play a whole lot of people with it, especially any of the new stragegies (Samuel, red offense, Gates of Sameria, ect), I was wondering if there were any changes I could make to this deck or any advice on problems this kind of deck faces against new strategies and how to counter that. Thanks (Sorry for any spelling mistakes, I'm doing this from memory and just after I woke up :) )
50 cards
LS: 8
NT only
Female only
shuffler
reveiler
3-liner
wanderer
anti-burial
hopper
Doms: 9
SoG
NJ
AotL (OT version)
Guardian
Grapes
CM
FA
Mayhem
DoN
Sites:1
DR
Forts:1
Storehouse
Artifacts/Cov/Curses:5
Unholy Writ
Stone Tower at Bethel
Blue Tassels
Bronze Laver
CoF
DAE:1
7 Years of Plenty
Heros:8
Joseph
Benny
Jacob
Rachael
Eve
Zeb
Asher
Captain
Hero Enhancements:6
Obediance of Noah
Reuban's Torn Clothes
Jacob Buries the Foregin gods
Joseph Before Pharaoh
Forgiveness of Joseph
Aberham's Decendants
Evil Characters: 7
Dreaming Pharaoh
Egyptian Magicians
Pharaoh's Cupbearer
Pharaoh's Baker
Am. Slave
KoT
Uzzah
Evil Enhancements: 4
Wonders Forgotten
Evil Spirit
Failed Objective
Egyptian Horses
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Out:
DragonRaid (Any concentrated site-lock deck is going to kill this off quickly. You have Levi and Joseph [for Samarias] and that should be enough.)
Bronze Laver (No need for this in a deck this size. Any defense you draw you're going to want on hand.)
Chariot of Fire (Genesis doesn't really need this - too many solid options to really be required.)
Captain of the Host (Kills Zeb's ability, and you have better options than a Jacob + Captain band.)
Jacob Buries the Foreign Gods (Not a very good card in my opinion - easily negated.)
Evil Spirit (Not good against banding or NT offenses - too situational.)
In:
Gomer
Haman's Plot
Judah
Simeon
Levi
Harvest Time
Creation of the World
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I agree, except with CotH. Zebulun's ability is going to be way more situational than a FbtN character who can't be stopped by Writ, let alone one Jacob can band to.
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I agree, except with CotH. Zebulun's ability is going to be way more situational than a FbtN character who can't be stopped by Writ, let alone one Jacob can band to.
CoTH can stopped by writ according to the play as
Captain of the Host (Ki)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate all non-weapon class special abilities except banding. • Play As: Negate all special abilities on Characters and Enhancements (except banding, weapons, and Captain’s special abilities). • Identifiers: OT Male Angel, Prophet • Verse: Joshua 5:14 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare)
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Writ only captures humans.
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Writ only captures humans.
Ahh true. Also, Joseph in Prison is listed under good enhancements, is that a mistake?
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Writ only captures humans.
Ahh true. Also, Joseph in Prison is listed under good enhancements, is that a mistake?
I assumed he meant Joseph Before Pharaoh.
I agree, except with CotH. Zebulun's ability is going to be way more situational than a FbtN character who can't be stopped by Writ, let alone one Jacob can band to.
I mostly disagree because the OP's deck leans more towards small deck sizes, especially if he listens to my advice, which gives Zeb a natural edge, especially with Storehouse. If Christian Martyr comes out early, that can often give Zeb the chance to simply walk in. Between Captain and Zeb in a Genesis deck, I'd take Zeb every time, but that's just my preference.
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I agree with Chronic. Even just the draw 1 of Zebby makes him better than CotH in my book, not to mention the potential for the pre-block ignore. I also agree with the other changes Chronic suggested.
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There is no reason you need to choose between CotH and Zebulun. Use them both. I used multiple copies of both in my T2 Nats winning Genesis offense. I can't see any good reason they won't work just as well in T1.
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There is no reason you need to choose between CotH and Zebulun. Use them both. I used multiple copies of both in my T2 Nats winning Genesis offense. I can't see any good reason they won't work just as well in T1.
The main thing is that Captain does in fact keep Zeb from working. If one is dedicated to using CotH, then yes, I'd say Zeb should still be in. However, I think a Genesis deck functions better without him. If CM has already been played, I'd rather throw all my enhancements into Storehouse and have a Zeb with two cards in hand than a Captain who's vulnerable to CBN enhancements such as Plot (a staple in most decks). Additionally, Zeb can be brought back by Asher or Cupbearer, counts as a human/Genesis Hero for Eve, counts for Creation of the World, and at his absolute worst, is still a D1 if you can't make a rescue. By the way OP, I would take out one more card (probably Obedience of Noah) to add Holy Grail, because it's use with Cupbearer is fantastic, on top of it's general usefulness.
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I get all that. Both CotH and Zebulun are powerhouses when it comes to rescuing souls. If you need to use Zebulun and CotH hasn't been discarded by your opponent yet, you can go into battle with CotH solo. That will get him killed or win you a LS most of the time. Problem solved.
You'd also be surprised at how many people forget that CotH keeps Zeb's ignore ability from working. I've lost track of the number of times I had both out, rescued with Zeb and my opponent just assumed they could not block him so they gave me the LS. And we're talking T2 players here, not n00bs. If they figure it out and you can't win with enhancement backup, then like you've said, Zebulun is pretty easy to get back.
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I've lost track of the number of times I had both out, rescued with Zeb and my opponent just assumed they could not block him so they gave me the LS. And we're talking T2 players here, not n00bs.
I once won a game when both my opponent and myself were using Genesis, and I used Grail to convert his A Slave after he made a rescue with Zebulun. Good times. At any rate, you do make good points, but I think the only thing I'd be willing to take out for Captain would be Judah, and I'd prefer digging Joseph out of the discard pile to Captain.
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I see the reason for the changes you have suggested, they just don't really fit my plaing style.
Half of my rescue attempts are with the Capt banding chain, and it works wonders for me. I will NEVER rip a plot (I spend too much money and time on this game to rip a card), so adding Gomer and plot is pointless for me. I've tried using just Levi for access before, it never works out well, I either use all me enhancements trying to keep him alive or he dies and I can't rescuse anymore. I used to play with Creation of the World, but it would be negated every time, so I took it out, plus I have Eve, Rachael, massive drawing, and Stone Pillar at Bethel to get out any heros I need. Bronze Laver is amazing with Egyptian Magicians, plus if I can't use Evil Spirit because my opponent is using a NT offense (which only happens half the time) then I use it as Bronze Laver fodder.
HT seems pointless with all the LS generation this deck has. Jacob Buries Foregin gods is awsome on Benny, plus it nukes HHI for capt band, unknown nation, and and coutless other annoying idols. I was actually thinking of taking Zeb out because I never get to use him. With all the drawing this deck does, even with a Storehouse I always have too many cards in hand to make his ability effective. I also play rather recklessly at times, so I like having a CoF in case I mess up. Relying on another hero (Asher) to get back other heros doesn't work well, becasue Asher will most likely die in battle, so I'll only ever get 1-2 heros back a game, which doesn't work well with my playing style.
I understand the reasons that you made these suggestions, but I have a playing style that doesn't work well with those card choices. Sorry this is wordy, but I wanted to give a good explanation for why your suggestions won't work so well for me. Feel free to disagree and gove more comments, your suggestions have made me view this deck and theme differently. Thanks for the imput.
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I've tried using just Levi for access before, it never works out well, I either use all me enhancements trying to keep him alive or he dies and I can't rescuse anymore.
Simeon/Levi is one of the best plays Genesis has, especially in the current T1 meta, where defense is sparse. I have won games simply abusing Simeon (with Levi banded in just in case) because my opponent would only have one or two defensive cards in hand and none in play, allowing me to keep him from ever putting forth a strong defense. I would argue that no Genesis offense is competitive without these two, regardless of how you feel about the site access.
I used to play with Creation of the World, but it would be negated every time, so I took it out, plus I have Eve, Rachael, massive drawing, and Stone Pillar at Bethel to get out any heros I need.
Then use it better. An early Creation of the World is essentially a win for Genesis, provided it's handled intelligently (read: anything except against black brigade). If Eve is in the draw pile when used, it helps you draw defense, it lets you use Simeon, Jacob, Dan (maybe), Zeb, etc. While it's largely situational, the benefits (even mid-game) are too large to ignore. If you're finding that it's being negated, use it with Angel of the Lord or a Joseph enhancement in hand (to play off Jacob). The card is less about getting out heroes you need and more about speeding the deck and potentially winning a soul by banding 1-10 heroes into battle, almost guaranteeing a rescue. Furthermore, what "massive drawing"? From what I can tell, you have a potential for 15 draws, half of which is off of Seven Years (which you must get out early to use effectively, and even then, seven turn games aren't unlikely). 3 cards off of Baker, 3 off of The Dreaming Pharaoh (if you're lucky - you have to have almost all of your defense in play to be able to use him for the full +3, and you'll rarely get more than one block off of him), +2 off of Swift Horses (same concern as TDP, and if you do place it on him in territory, it makes him a target for AotL, HG, etc). In general, with my Genesis deck, I don't usually get more than 10 draws off of it total, something that Sam and Disciples/Gardensciples laughs at.
Bronze Laver is amazing with Egyptian Magicians, plus if I can't use Evil Spirit because my opponent is using a NT offense (which only happens half the time) then I use it as Bronze Laver fodder.
Both of these cards are fluff, and there are better options. Bronze Laver is amazing with EM I agree, but if that card is buried, you're essentially looking at a dead card for the rest of the game. You can't add a card based on one possible play with questionable benefits. Evil Spirit isn't any better. Three of the five top offenses are NT, one of the OT offenses is heavily banding based, and you're unlikely to get much initiative against the last one (Genesis).
HT seems pointless with all the LS generation this deck has. Jacob Buries Foregin gods is awsome on Benny, plus it nukes HHI for capt band, unknown nation, and and coutless other annoying idols.
Any speed deck needs HT - Genesis doesn't have nearly as much soul generation as you think it does. JBtFG doesn't target Unknown Nation, because it only depicts an idol - it is not one. Really, the only card that's used even close to commonly is HHI, and nobody really uses it in T1 right now.
I was actually thinking of taking Zeb out because I never get to use him. With all the drawing this deck does, even with a Storehouse I always have too many cards in hand to make his ability effective.
Genesis relies on small hand sizes. If you can't manage to keep your hand small, then honestly, Genesis probably doesn't fit your play style enough to use.
Relying on another hero (Asher) to get back other heros doesn't work well, becasue Asher will most likely die in battle, so I'll only ever get 1-2 heros back a game, which doesn't work well with my playing style.
The only hero you'll ever really need to get back is Joseph, and you should have Rachel and Judah for that. If you've lost all three of those heroes, Ben, and Zebulun, Chariot of Fire isn't going to save you.
I don't mean any of this insultingly, but Genesis requires a specific play style to be able to play it effectively, and from your comments, it sounds like you might be better off playing a different speedy offense (Sam actually sounds perfect for your play style). By all means, play whatever deck you have fun and find success with, but I don't anticipate you winning many high-level games with this deck.
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You may not see how this deck can be competetive without simeon/levi, creation of the world, and abusing zeb, but this deck has never had more than 2 LS's rescued against it, and usually wins 5-0 or 5-1. I think Genesis doesn't require as specific of a play style as you think, and that there are different ways to win with it than you see. I've been in this game long enough to see that different cards work best for different players, and a deck is only as good as the player. Genesis as you describe might work best for you, but you are suggesting cards that don't work for me. You could have the 2 top players in the world play the exact same deck and get completely different results. This work for me. True I haven't played any high level players, and I've never played agains a disciples or sam deck (although I have played disciples in T2 and build a disciples deck of my own), but I have studied these decks online and would feel confident playing my Genesis against any of them. Thanks for the advice, but just because I don't play Genesis with the same mindset you do doesn't mean it can't work for me
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I don't understand how certain cards don't work with your play style, can you explain?
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If you aren't going to follow any of the advice given to you because it doesn't match your playstyle, why post your deck?
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I posted the deck because I'm looking for advice, it just that the advice I've gotten either I've tried or I don't see the point in it. I don't like Zeb because I'm not good at keeping a small hand. I don't like simeon and levi cause I've played them before and they never last more than a few turns against the kind of decks I've played. I don't like creation of the workd because it has been negated in every game I've used it in. I don't like HT because this deck can generate 3 LS easy, usually more depending on how many times I get to use Joseph before Pharaoh. I also posted this deck because I haven't played it againt some of the new themes and I wanted advice on how this kind of deck does against those themes, like gates of samera, gardensiples, sam, ect.
Bronze Laver is one of my fav cards, so since there is a cool card to use it with in this deck, I'm gonna use it, even if others think its fluff. I have found so many uses for it in this deck, usually to recycle evil doms that I don't use as much ( I hardly ever use mayhem or DoN, FA after my opponent plays guardian), add evil characters to my deck to get out with am. slave, recycling evil spirit if they use NT, and of couse egy. magicians for extra drawing of inish or banding. I don't like how small this defense is already, so I don't want to take out a CBN battle winner, even if I can only use it half the time (and use it for bronze laver fodder the other half)
I would consider using some of the cards suggested, like simeon/levi, if there were cards in my deck I could take out, but everything in the deck is either necessary or cards I really like playing with this strategy. I don't know all of the different possibilities out there for a Genesis deck, so unless I post it, I'll never learn of the different posibilities, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with how other people use it. I really do appreciate the advice, and I have strongly considered all of it, it's just that I like the cards I would have to take out of the deck better than the ones I would add in
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Here's the thing, I would be willing to say I've played Genesis more than any-non playtester this season so far. I've tried out several different approaches and emphasises to Genesis, and by far the best performing was a deck with a small amount of enhancements and a strong emphasis on Joseph and Zebulun. Throughout my time playing it, I've also learned what does and does not work even outside of my playstyle, and what is absolutely necessary for a Genesis deck to be competitive against other top decks. I respect your decision to play Genesis however you want, however, you also need to respect the expertise of those of us that have played Genesis more than you have, and indeed know the meta as a whole better than you do. Simply put, your deck would not compete on a national level against top decks piloted by top players, such as Gardensciples, Sam, and the like. I do not mean that to insult you, I am just stating my opinion (albeit a very well educated one, and one that would be backed by other players). If you don't believe me, I'd encourage you to download RTS and join ROOT. It's a great, friendly atmosphere and it will let you test your deck(s) out against some very good players. You can learn what does and doesn't work in the current meta, and who knows? Maybe you'll show me up. =)
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I used to play with Creation of the World, but it would be negated every time, so I took it out, plus I have Eve, Rachael, massive drawing, and Stone Pillar at Bethel to get out any heros I need.
Then use it better. An early Creation of the World is essentially a win for Genesis, provided it's handled intelligently (read: anything except against black brigade).
Remind me to tell you about the time I removed Bret's entire offense in the first turn from the game. Good times.
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I used to play with Creation of the World, but it would be negated every time, so I took it out, plus I have Eve, Rachael, massive drawing, and Stone Pillar at Bethel to get out any heros I need.
Then use it better. An early Creation of the World is essentially a win for Genesis, provided it's handled intelligently (read: anything except against black brigade).
Remind me to tell you about the time I removed Bret's entire offense in the first turn from the game. Good times.
Pol once took out half my offense and I still managed to beat him. Even better times.
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I think I will try taking out CoF, blue tassels, and DR for judah, simeon, and levi. It makes me really uncomfortable to run a deck without those cards (they are staples in almost any deck I make) but I am willing to try
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You should keep blue tassels as most stand alone defenses run writ and magic charms and without it you have no capture protection. I would take out bronze laver instead or not worry about judah if you find it super useful.
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i was thinking judah would replace blue tassels cause he gets back captured heros and levi would punish them for capturing characters. ive never used judah before cause before the new joseph came out he was pretty useless imo
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He was indeed useless until the new Joseph came out. However, I run Blue Tassels in my Genesis deck, because of the aforementioned reason - Unholy Writ at least is almost always a staple in every T1 deck, and this deck only has one capture ability (Cupbearer's) other than your own Writ, so you're pretty well off there. Genesis is pretty vulnerable to capture, so having protection from that is, in my opinion, important. I still think you should take out JBtFG, because it doesn't work against evil banding, only takes out HHI (a rarely used card right now), and just isn't really that good. Taking it out will also let you keep your hand size down.
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i was thinking judah would replace blue tassels cause he gets back captured heros and levi would punish them for capturing characters. ive never used judah before cause before the new joseph came out he was pretty useless imo
It's better to be proactive then reactive. It's even better to be both so I would switch blue tassels out for covenant with palestine (it even allows your cupbearer and JBP to work) if you decide to keep it in.
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would cov with palestine/blue tassels stop am. slave?
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would cov with palestine/blue tassels stop am. slave?
Tassels would, but not Palestine.
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold/Brown • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If blocking, you may place this card in opponent's Land of Bondage to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add it to the battle. • Play As: If blocking, you may choose to have your opponent capture this card to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add to battle the Evil Character. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Egypt • Verse: I Samuel 30:13 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)
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would cov with palestine/blue tassels stop am. slave?
Tassels would, but not Palestine.
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold/Brown • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If blocking, you may place this card in opponent's Land of Bondage to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add it to the battle. • Play As: If blocking, you may choose to have your opponent capture this card to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add to battle the Evil Character. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Egypt • Verse: I Samuel 30:13 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)
Disregard Erratas disguised as a Play As. A Slave would not be stopped by Tassels.
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Disregard Erratas disguised as a Play As. A Slave would not be stopped by Tassels.
I'm not sure why you think this is errata. The Amalekite's Slave is, and always has been, a self capture ability. That means Blue Tassels protects him from capturing himself.
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I was under the impression that A Slave was actually a place for gameplay definition purposes. My bad.
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If I were to take out bronze laver for cov w/palistine, then I would probably take out evil spirit as well, becasue then the half of the time I'm playing a NT deck it would be useless. I would want to put in something defensive in its place though. any suggestions? I was thinking burial perhaps, idk any other cbn battle winners for evil gold
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I was under the impression that A Slave was actually a place for gameplay definition purposes. My bad.
The card says it's a place, so it's a place. Or are we now errataing cards to do what they meant to do now?
If I were to take out bronze laver for cov w/palistine, then I would probably take out evil spirit as well, becasue then the half of the time I'm playing a NT deck it would be useless. I would want to put in something defensive in its place though. any suggestions? I was thinking burial perhaps, idk any other cbn battle winners for evil gold
Gomer's another choice. She adds 3/3 to KoT, as well as your Egyptian bands, and can steal your opponent's defense.
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I agree with Gabe, if TaS wasn't a capture then you could never rescue it as a lost soul.
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It's a true play-as (except it should be "capture to your opponent's Land of Bondage" and not "allow your opponent to capture") because "place in Land of Bondage" is archaic for "capture."