Author Topic: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists  (Read 7231 times)

Chris

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Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« on: April 29, 2012, 03:08:08 PM »
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We've had a lot of big rulings and a lot of things have changed since the last tier list topic was posted in, and I think the changes are drastic enough to merit a new thread. So about it? Have the rules hurt Samuel decks enough to clearly elevate a theme (or multiple themes) above them? Are they still the best?

Offline Red

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 03:11:51 PM »
-1
Honestly I believe sam was hit but not hit enough to where the meta is slow enough again for balanced decks to to truly be viable. I think as it stands A tier would look like this:

     A:  Gardensciples
          Various spread offenses focused on Sam or FBTNB.
          Disciples
          Watertomb

     B: Genesis aggro
         Straight FBTNB
         Judges
         Teal/X
         Prophets(Isaiah)

      C: Straight teal
           Blue/silver
           Royality
          Straight Red
 
     D: everything else.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 04:25:27 PM by Red »
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 03:46:39 PM »
+2
     D: everything else.

You'd throw prophets in with everything else!? I would argue that a solid Isaiah/Prophets deck should be B tier. Those only got better with the rule changes. 8)
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Chris

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2012, 03:50:40 PM »
+1
Honestly I believe sam was hit but not hit enough to where the meta is slow enough again for balanced decks to to truly be viable. I think as it stands A tier would look like this:

The question isn't so much whether balanced decks are viable (I think they are, though I doubt one will place at Nats) but whether other offense-heavy decks have overtaken Sam in overall power. For your actual tier list, you neglected to put Prophets (probable B tier), Disciples (probable A tier), and Water Garden (probable A tier) in.

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 03:52:50 PM »
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I agree that prophets should be higher than D but why is Royalty so high up? It should be D with everything else

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 04:23:49 PM »
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I agree that prophets should be higher than D but why is Royalty so high up? It should be D with everything else
Royality does not suck.  People don't seem to grasp that but then again it's not really played and is slightly slow. And I made the list on the fly so I left some stuff out on accident.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 04:26:17 PM by Red »
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 07:17:16 PM »
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In my opinion Sam FBTNB variant is the best deck out there.  Close behind are the rest of Sam decks and Gardenciples. 

I think that Genesis decks got better with the new rules but not enough to catch Sam.  The deck that got the biggest boost was the Water-Garden because of the importance of Soul-Gen, personally I think that it bumped up from B Tier to A Tier.  Balanced decks also got a good boost, but I don't think that they will win nats this year if for no other reason than the fact that offensive heavy will have balanced decks out-numbered at nats. 

Here's how I would fix the tier list. 

A Tier
Sam/FBTNB
Gardenciples
Other Sam decks
Genesis
Watergarden
Diciples

B Tier
Teal/+
FBTNB
Prophets (Isaiah)
Judges

C Tier
Royalty
Red
Straight Teal

D:
Whatever Else there is.
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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 08:34:29 PM »
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In my opinion Sam FBTNB variant is the best deck out there.
What does that look like to you?
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 08:38:09 PM »
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A spread offense that incorporates Ira and Benniah and Aaron and Moses.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 08:44:50 PM »
+1
I don't play online and haven't had much recent competition, but I do build a crazy amount of decks, so maybe my thoughts are worth something.

The new rules haven't changed the meta, at all, and being such the meta is at an advantage. Yes, the meta is good against the meta. Which makes me agree with Wings of Music for the most part.

That said, the gap between the powerhouse Samuel offenses (and the like) and balanced/defensive-heavy has shrunk massively. No longer does the meta defense have any assured blocks. This puts them at a huge disadvantage compared to what they were. Now it's more reliant on what your opponent gets and manipulating that. IF it's meta vs. meta, this isn't much of a problem, as you can use Gib Delagates, Ammy Slave, and Cupbearer without second thought to make up for that, or Captured Ark to get rid of Lampstand so your Falling Away is good, etc. However, against a slower moving deck, this can become increasingly frustrating, causing you to get so nervous in between rounds you FORGET YOUR DECK IS IN YOUR POCKET.

Okay, but seriously, I think defensive heavy does have a chance. Balanced less so, as it tends to be more haxy, since you have two things to worry about. In the end, speed will take it due to odds. When there's 10 good speed decks being piloted by good players against 2 turtle decks, it'll be tough. Next year it'll hopefully change.

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 08:55:59 PM »
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Excellent analysis, I agree almost completely. The only thing that I disagree on is that I think that I would but balanced and defensive heavy on equal ground instead of putting defensive heavy ahead of balanced.  That's little more than a nuance however. 
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 09:46:58 PM »
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FORGET YOUR DECK IS IN YOUR POCKET.
I saw what you did there :)

A Tier
Sam/FBTNB
Gardenciples
Other Sam decks
Genesis
Watergarden
Diciples
Even combining the multiple TGT, disciple, and Sam varients above, it is nice to have 4 or 5 different offenses that are all considered to be top tournament worthy this year.  That is far more balanced than years in the past.

Also, straight Red is better than straight Judges in my book.

Offline CJSports

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 09:49:01 PM »
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I believe Water-Garden is head and shoulders above Gardensciples because of its LS generation power.

I'd like to clarify on Gardensciples first. Are you talking about Heavy Disciples with a splash of TGT, Heavy TGT with a splash of disciples or heavy on both sides somehow?

I have yet to play a truely good sam deck so until I see evidence of them being the best then I think Water-Garden is number one.
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 10:00:07 PM »
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I think that the Water-Garden is far below Gardenchiples because it's significantly slower.  Water-Garden is unable to make use of the speed tactics that Gardeciples and Sam have available, simply put, it's just not fast enough to win. 

Soul Gen is great but even with this slight shift in the meta speed is still king.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:01:57 AM by Wings of Music »
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 11:08:06 PM »
+3
Also, straight Red is better than straight Judges in my book.
Both are just silly without Sam splash though.

Judges are a smaller offense. I could go either way on that one.

Offline Arrthoa

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 11:34:34 PM »
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I think Genesis and Disciples are on par with each other cause they both have strong characters and good speed and enhancements. I say this cause I don't know is you listed those in A in order of how great they are or not.

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 11:53:37 PM »
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I listed them in order of what I think is superior.  However I don't think that there's a whole lot of difference in power between Genesis Watergarden and disciples as they are all quite good.  I do think that there's a definite gap between those three and Sam/Gardenciples     
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Offline CJSports

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 06:14:40 PM »
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Can I have a definition of a Gardensciples deck. Is it heavy on TGT or Disciples?
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Chris

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 06:21:41 PM »
+4
Can I have a definition of a Gardensciples deck. Is it heavy on TGT or Disciples?

Most Gardensciples decks I've seen tend to split down the middle for the most part. The main five TGT girls, Peter, John, Matthew, Philip, and Bart.

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 08:20:45 PM »
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+1 That's good description. 
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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2012, 09:54:18 AM »
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What is TGT?
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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2012, 09:56:33 AM »
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What is TGT?

The Garden Tomb (RA)

Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If opponent has a redeemed Lost Soul, then Salome, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Peter, John, and Mary the mother of James ignore all evil brigades that do not have at least two Characters in play. • Identifiers: Empty! • Verse: Mark 16:1 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)
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Offline Arrthoa

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2012, 11:20:00 AM »
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What is TGT?
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-card-play/redemption174-abbreviations-acronyms-shortcuts-aliases/

here it the place where you can find what everything means

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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2012, 11:41:27 AM »
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So there is a whole deck strategy based on one card? Wow.
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Re: Meta Discussion and Proposed Tier Lists
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2012, 01:57:44 PM »
+3
So there is a whole deck strategy based on one card? Wow.
Yes and no. The decks are based around TGT, but even without TGT it packs a powerful punch. With TGT it's insanely good.

 


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