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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 1 Deck Advice => Topic started by: Red Wing on September 17, 2011, 12:20:58 PM

Title: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Red Wing on September 17, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
How good are they ???
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Chronic Apathy on September 17, 2011, 01:22:05 PM
Not really at all.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Red Wing on September 17, 2011, 01:33:30 PM
Not really at all.

Why not? They have two CBN Battle winners, a protect fort, a way to negate Heroes, and they can use wrath of satan, devourer, and foolish advice. Don't forget Foreign Sword. 
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 17, 2011, 01:41:15 PM
Foreign sword is only truly powerful on offense.  Canaanites don't have really good characters.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Neil Da BOMB J on September 17, 2011, 04:12:08 PM
Foreign sword is only truly powerful on offense.  Canaanites don't have really good characters.
They don't have good characters but there enhancements are alright.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 17, 2011, 04:38:29 PM
They are somewhat effective, but are overshadowed by much better defenses.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 17, 2011, 09:19:52 PM
They are somewhat effective, but are overshadowed by much better defenses.
So you're saying that....

...Black is weak?
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi378.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo227%2Frm137%2FYeahhhh.png&hash=8c1592f290aca90e4a2500fb60d4bc48f37b784d)
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Isildur on September 17, 2011, 10:36:05 PM
They are somewhat effective, but are overshadowed by much better defenses.
Yep sums it up in a nut shell. They were thoroughly tested during play testing and are by far a blast to use but your wont be winning nats with them any time soon due to their lack of characters.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: lightningninja on September 18, 2011, 12:08:40 AM
Schechem, Jezebel, Lot's Wife, Lot's Daughters, Abinedab, Canaanite Delegates, Woman at Thebez, Bera King of Sodom, Sisera and I think one more.

That's 9 evil characters at the least. I consider that a solid defense. Not to mention they have 2 cbn battle winners, Sisera (who will be cbn against most top decks), King Ahab to add for a play-first with brown (I use the draw 4 play next), a character that removes a prophet, a GREAT fortress, and Pride of Simon to recur a cbn enhancement. What's not to like? Did I mention a curse that can discard sog by the first or second turn if they use a good dominant?

They'll be even better if they make the new rescue rule, they can generate plenty of souls.

Personally, I think they are amazing and I predict I will be using them all year. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Gabe on September 18, 2011, 12:16:54 AM
There are 11 Canaanites total. They're pretty strong if built right, but most people don't use defense in T1.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Bryon on September 18, 2011, 12:26:49 AM
but most people don't use defense in T1
... because Speed + (Son of God/NJ, Burial, and a couple chump blocks) make a decent stalling tactic.

I'm hoping we'll see more defense when/if the dominant cap is instituted.  We'll probably see more defense if you can't use Son of God and NJ to deny opponent's rescues.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Isildur on September 18, 2011, 01:12:35 AM
Quote
We'll probably see more defense if you can't use Son of God and NJ to deny opponent's rescues.
Mumble Mumble Mumble  :-\
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 18, 2011, 10:59:33 PM
Yes, Canaanites have EC's, but they don't have very good ones. Lot's Wife is a universal bander, but isn't CBN like Gomer. Schechem can autoblock if they attack with a lone female and have no negation, which never happens. Jezebel can negatably send a Prophet to Obidaiah's Caves for a cost. Lot's Daughters have good initiative, but even then they lose it after a block. Abimelech seems to have a Hero's SA. Canaanite Delegates is probably the best of the lot, but they suffer from lack of enhancements in T1. Woman at Thebez is good for exactly one CBN block and then she's useless, being somewhat less powerful than Uzzah but still good. Bera King of Sodom is only good against Red, requires fluffy Sites, and I can't remember the last time a lone Red Hero went into battle without one of 9001 ITB's. Sisera would be amazing if he had lower numbers. As-is, he makes Enhancements CBN v. two very popular Brigades, but is himself of almost staggeringly perfect numbers to never get initiative against them. Prince of Tyrus is all but useless. King of Tyrus is not Black.

All in all, Canaanites have 1 amazing but off-brigade, 1 great, 2 or 3 good and a bunch of filler. Couple this with the fact that their only usable enhancements are Stone, Wrath, Trickery, Hunger, JiP, and Pride of Simon, and you can see why other brigades are better.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: lightningninja on September 18, 2011, 11:35:38 PM
You say Bera isn't good because Red bands but you're saying Sisera is bad because he gives initiative.  :o

I propose they are the fastest defense in the game. Yeah, I may be crazy. Or I may be right.  :)
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: TechnoEthicist on September 18, 2011, 11:40:24 PM
In case of confusion, Sisera is a GUY :P

Judges 4:22
Just then Barak came by in pursuit of Sisera, and Jael went out to meet him. “Come,” she said, “I will show you the man you’re looking for.” So he went in with her, and there lay Sisera with the tent peg through his temple—dead.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on September 19, 2011, 12:38:57 AM
You say Bera isn't good because Red bands but you're saying Sisera is bad because he gives initiative.  :o

I propose they are the fastest defense in the game. Yeah, I may be crazy. Or I may be right.  :)

Or you might not have ever played Egyptians.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Bryon on September 19, 2011, 01:42:09 AM
Canaanites are pretty good if you use them with Raider's Camp and Hormah.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 19, 2011, 09:22:25 AM
You say Bera isn't good because Red bands but you're saying Sisera is bad because he gives initiative.  :o

I propose they are the fastest defense in the game. Yeah, I may be crazy. Or I may be right.  :)

Or you might not have ever played Egyptians.
Egyptians are easily the fastest defense currently, unless you're one of those crazy people who play all the banding Phillies + Ashdod + Every horses ever.  Dreaming Pharoah + Egyptian horses = D5 play next.  Problem is, they're useless in multi.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Chronic Apathy on September 19, 2011, 10:54:59 AM
Egyptians are easily the fastest defense currently, unless you're one of those crazy people who play all the banding Phillies + Ashdod + Every horses ever.  Dreaming Pharoah + Egyptian horses = D5 play next.  Problem is, they're useless in multi.

I disagree, actually. Dreaming Pharaoh is only good if you already have three Genesis Egyptians in play. Baker is great, but is only good when you're using Genesis on offense. I've only had one game where I got more than six draws from my defense, and that was incredibly lucky. Usually I get one d3 from Baker, and one or two draws from Pharaoh, and that exhausts Egyptians unless you're using them in bulk (in which case, you're better off with other defenses with better drawing capabilities). Egyptians will probably get you the most draw for a small amount of cards (my defense in my Genesis deck is seven cards), but the larger the defense the worse they become for speed.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Gabe on September 19, 2011, 11:03:37 AM
If by "fast" you mean draw lots of cards, then nothing can top gray.

Canaanites alone are decent. Combined with Philistines they're even better.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 19, 2011, 11:13:50 AM
Egyptians are easily the fastest defense currently, unless you're one of those crazy people who play all the banding Phillies + Ashdod + Every horses ever.  Dreaming Pharoah + Egyptian horses = D5 play next.  Problem is, they're useless in multi.

I disagree, actually. Dreaming Pharaoh is only good if you already have three Genesis Egyptians in play. Baker is great, but is only good when you're using Genesis on offense. I've only had one game where I got more than six draws from my defense, and that was incredibly lucky. Usually I get one d3 from Baker, and one or two draws from Pharaoh, and that exhausts Egyptians unless you're using them in bulk (in which case, you're better off with other defenses with better drawing capabilities). Egyptians will probably get you the most draw for a small amount of cards (my defense in my Genesis deck is seven cards), but the larger the defense the worse they become for speed.
My current deck has more defense than I usually play, to let my offense set up some of the nasty combos I've got.  It's pretty experimental at this point.  Swift horses can help with draw as well.

What does Grey have for drawing?
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Red Wing on September 19, 2011, 11:47:20 AM
Namaan's chariots and Horses, proud Pharisee, Pretension and, emperor Vitellius.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Gabe on September 19, 2011, 11:55:33 AM
Namaan's chariots and Horses, proud Pharisee, Pretension and, emperor Vitellius.

Yes, all those and Sabbath Breaker.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Red Wing on September 19, 2011, 12:27:23 PM
I forgot to mention Heavy Taxes. Also with the Emperors you've got Roman prison and Denarius.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on September 19, 2011, 12:53:54 PM
If you remove the word "Canaanite" from the title of this thread, it can be answered in two words: Not very.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 19, 2011, 12:54:34 PM
Namaan's chariots and Horses, proud Pharisee, Pretension and, emperor Vitellius.
Wow.  Yup, totally had a brain fart, couldn't remember any of those except PP.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 19, 2011, 03:45:16 PM
And even then, that list leaves out Heavy Taxes, Sabbath Breaker, and Denarius.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 19, 2011, 06:08:57 PM
Yeah, just didn't feel like doing a massive quote.

However, all I've seen is Phars.  Emps get crushed by a simple CoT.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: lightningninja on September 19, 2011, 06:31:23 PM
Lolz. That's nice. I prefer drawing ten cards and cbn winning the battle. Hey, that's just me. If you don't like drawing that many cards, Canaanites are NOT for you. You can kill yourself with Egyptians and have my abigail protect against your failed objective if you want. Or I just draw Miriam first turn and you never block. Lol which is actually what happened last tourney...  8) Not my deck, but props to Brandon Abbott for the Miriam.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Gabe on September 19, 2011, 06:34:34 PM
I prefer drawing ten cards and cbn winning the battle.

Do you mind explaining how you reliably and consistently draw 10 with Canaanites?
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: lightningninja on September 19, 2011, 06:37:34 PM
I prefer drawing ten cards and cbn winning the battle.

Do you mind explaining how you reliably and consistently draw 10 with Canaanites?
Define reliably.  ;) Drawing 5 seems extremely consistent. They also have the best site in the game, imo.

Also converting Woman at Thebez to a red hero and having Ishmaiah might not be the fastest draw engine in the game, but it's the most original.  ;D
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Neil Da BOMB J on September 19, 2011, 07:42:21 PM
I'd say that even with 2 CBI caananites do't have any interrupts so that weakens them.  Look, Egyptians have 3 CBN and they don't get a lot of playing time.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 19, 2011, 10:33:36 PM
Lolz. That's nice. I prefer drawing ten cards and cbn winning the battle. Hey, that's just me. If you don't like drawing that many cards, Canaanites are NOT for you. You can kill yourself with Egyptians and have my abigail protect against your failed objective if you want. Or I just draw Miriam first turn and you never block. Lol which is actually what happened last tourney...  8) Not my deck, but props to Brandon Abbott for the Miriam.
Pharaoh's throne room.  If you don't have it, you're doing something wrong.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 19, 2011, 11:50:17 PM
I haven't used PTR in any of my decks.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: SomeKittens on September 19, 2011, 11:55:22 PM
I haven't used PTR in any of my decks.
Have you been playing Egyptians?  With such a small defense, the protect from conversion is great against HG.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 20, 2011, 09:44:07 AM
A Converted Dreaming Pharaoh lets me D5 on my own turn. I'll take that.
Title: Re: How effective are Canaanite defenses in T1?
Post by: lightningninja on September 21, 2011, 11:43:02 PM
Egyptian defenses are meant to fly through their deck, draw a bunch of cards, and get 2 max blocks and dom blocks. Hopes are the game is over by then. Failed Objective and Wonders Forgotten are the two aforementioned blocks.
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