Author Topic: Defenses strong enough for turtle? (Read 9701 times)

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #25 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:26:15 AM »

I don't get it. Every game comes down to the draw. Why bother to only talk about it for speed decks?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #26 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:42:36 AM »

Turtle decks. The deck Redemption needs, but not the one it wants.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:07:05 PM »

The comparison to chess is not to say that it's more strategic, but that it's solved. I don't have to wonder what kind of offense you have because it's one Hero with an Ignore ability. I don't have to wonder which defensive cards you've chosen to include because you've included all of them. And for your part, you don't have to make the strategic decision of whether to attack or who to attack with based on whether I may have CM or Plot or Confusion or DoU or any other given variable because you don't attack.

Turtle v. Turtle would be even less strategic than speed v. speed, so if you want to make a fair comparison let's talk about that.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #28 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:13:02 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 03, 2012, 02:07:05 PM

The comparison to chess is not to say that it's more strategic, but that it's solved. I don't have to wonder what kind of offense you have because it's one Hero with an Ignore ability.

There's more than one kind of turtle offense; a small TGT or Isaiah offense can also quite easily be considered "Turtle," not to mention Saul/Paul or ET.

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I don't have to wonder which defensive cards you've chosen to include because you've included all of them.

There are a lot of different approaches to a turtle defense; most people won't dispute that Gates of Samaria is the best, but the subject of Assyrian splash comes into play, not to mention different brown cards that you decide to use.

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Turtle v. Turtle would be even less strategic than speed v. speed, so if you want to make a fair comparison let's talk about that.

Turtle v. Turtle, while boring, takes a lot of strategy, because it does indeed become a game of chess.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:32:28 PM »

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #30 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:42:39 PM »

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This year? How about almost every year.

In regards to offenses being stronger than defenses-
No way, past two years I did exceptionally well with defensive heavy decks. Last year if you could stop TGT/Disciples you were good. The year before if you could stop Teal/Green or TealTomb, you were good. Now you have to stop everything.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #31 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:47:07 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on February 03, 2012, 02:42:39 PM

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This year? How about almost every year.
In regards to offenses being stronger than defenses-
No way, past two years I did exceptionally well with defensive heavy decks. Last year if you could stop TGT/Disciples you were good. The year before if you could stop Teal/Green or TealTomb, you were good. Now you have to stop everything.

The thing is though, the same cards shut down almost everything. The meta is diverse, but all the strong offenses share some of the same weaknesses. Naz shuts down Genesis and Sam decks, especially with CP to protect it. Household Idols, Hezekiah's Signet Ring, Rain Becomes Dust, and Covenant with Death pretty much shut down everything else as well. If you put up a Temple with Lampstand on it, your HHI (which destroys all Sam decks) is completely protected, your RBD (destroys Disciples and Gardensciples) is completely protected, and a large defense obviously works well against TGT itself.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #32 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:58:58 PM »

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Naz shuts down Genesis and Sam decks,

Angel with the Secret Name for Sam. And how does Naz affect Genesis decks? I run a Genesis deck and could care less, I have so many hero's/CBN enhs with Abe's kid to back them up that I don't beed to search.

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Household Idols, Hezekiah's Signet Ring, Rain Becomes Dust, and Covenant with Death pretty much shut down everything else as well.

Ok, so which one are you going to activate? All are easy to get rid of now too, let alone Captured Ark. So activate one I attack with something else that your artifact doesn't target.

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If you put up a Temple with Lampstand on it, your HHI (which destroys all Sam decks) is completely protected, your RBD (destroys Disciples and Gardensciples) is completely protected, and a large defense obviously works well against TGT itself.

So Lampstand stops DoN on HHI...how is this completely protected? And have you played a Sam deck? They still have protection, Samuel's Edict, and some include slight recursion. Also they have counters for HHI, such as Cov W/ Moses and Cov W/ David. Rain Becomes Dust is not used all too much, and when that is activated you don't attack to draw, you just attack.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #33 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:09:05 PM »

Turtle vs. Turtle doesn't necessarily take any strategy. More than likely, it'll end as a 3-2 game or something like that. However, the more diverse deck types we have, the more strategy you have in building your deck and playing. When all you play against is speed, you're more likely to make sub-optimal plays against a turtle or balanced deck. So having turtles is a good thing. Having a bunch of turtles is a bad thing.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:16:03 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on February 03, 2012, 02:58:58 PM

Angel with the Secret Name for Sam. And how does Naz affect Genesis decks? I run a Genesis deck and could care less, I have so many hero's/CBN enhs with Abe's kid to back them up that I don't beed to search.

The strongest Genesis decks need search to get everything running quickly because they don't have much drawing (Gentyptians aside). In general, if Genesis hasn't gotten Joseph or at least Zebulun out in the first two or three turns, it's going to lose, because it falls behind too quickly. If an early Naz or Signet Ring comes out and Genesis hasn't drawn a way to stop it, it won't be able to recover against another fast offense (Genyptians, TGT, Disciples, or Sam).

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Ok, so which one are you going to activate? All are easy to get rid of now too, let alone Captured Ark. So activate one I attack with something else that your artifact doesn't target.

Pretty much every widely-used offense takes a hit from one specific artifact; at least a big enough hit to allow the opponent's offense a potentially huge advantage. Samuel decks get shut down by HHI, because more than anything they rely on cards that band. Without the use of any banding heroes, standalone defenses can make a few blocks, which makes all the difference. Genesis, as mentioned, gets shut down by Hezzy's Signet Ring, because the best Genesis decks require search to set up quickly. Gardensciples and Disciples both take a massive hit from RBD, and if that gets taken out by Passover Hymn, Cov w/ Death or HHI also work well to, at the very least, limit your opponent's options. Nazareth makes Captured Ark a dead card, and a Lampstand on a Temple protects from DoN. That means that the only cards that can stop artifacts are relatively niche, and not a lot of decks use them right now.

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So Lampstand stops DoN on HHI...how is this completely protected? And have you played a Sam deck? They still have protection, Samuel's Edict, and some include slight recursion. Also they have counters for HHI, such as Cov W/ Moses and Cov W/ David

Who uses Covenant with Moses or Covenant with David? I have indeed played Sam decks, and I know how they function, primarily with speed. If you don't get any anti-meta cards out in the first couple turns, then yes, most Samuel decks will have gotten a large enough advantage to win. However, with HHI out, Sam can't enter battle, Abby can't enter battle, no FBTNB heroes can enter battle - it really, really limits the options that Sam decks have.

I'm not saying that anti-meta cards are infallible, however, they're a lot more effective than you seem to think.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:38:19 PM »

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The strongest Genesis decks need search to get everything running quickly because they don't have much drawing (Gentyptians aside).

Yes but the top deck is not Genesis offense, something on defense, it is Genyptians. I would not go to a competitive tournament with a Genesis offense, with out having a Genesis defense, just because you have to draw to get your offense rolling, and the defense does this. I agree, just Genesis offenses would get stalled out, and toss-up on losing, but competitively you wouldn't see a top ranked deck running straight blue and something else on defense. No offense to whoever is running it, I just do not see it as strong.

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In general, if Genesis hasn't gotten Joseph or at least Zebulun out in the first two or three turns, it's going to lose, because it falls behind too quickly. If an early Naz or Signet Ring comes out and Genesis hasn't drawn a way to stop it, it won't be able to recover against another fast offense (Genyptians, TGT, Disciples, or Sam).

Ok so in general if they haven't gotten out Naz or Signet ring, offense wins? It's two cards verse two cards...poor example. More than likely the Genesis deck will be fifty cards compared to the defensive heavy 63+.

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Pretty much every widely-used offense takes a hit from one specific artifact; at least a big enough hit to allow the opponent's offense a potentially huge advantage. Samuel decks get shut down by HHI, because more than anything they rely on cards that band. Without the use of any banding heroes, standalone defenses can make a few blocks, which makes all the difference. Genesis, as mentioned, gets shut down by Hezzy's Signet Ring, because the best Genesis decks require search to set up quickly. Gardensciples and Disciples both take a massive hit from RBD, and if that gets taken out by Passover Hymn, Cov w/ Death or HHI also work well to, at the very least, limit your opponent's options. Nazareth makes Captured Ark a dead card, and a Lampstand on a Temple protects from DoN. That means that the only cards that can stop artifacts are relatively niche, and not a lot of decks use them right now.

Yes Sam decks get hurt by HHI, but what Sam player does not include plenty of counters to this? And I still disagree on Signet Ring hurting Genesis offense. They have Benjamin, Joseph, and Jacob as their main hero's. I am sure opening hand you should get one in a 50 card deck, or at least by turn three, ASSUMING you have Signet Ring up turn 1... Garden/Di don't take a massive hit. They have some of the best bands in the offense and have some of the best battle winners in the offense. Sure they draw to help them get those, but these decks will always have something to attack with, RBD might stall it, but now you have to have RBD up the majority of the time. Artifacts do always hurt offenses, I agree with you on that, but what I am saying is these decks are faster than the decks that use all these counters, and they have ways of getting rid of the artifacts. You speak as though you 'll have RBD/HHI/Lampstand and a temple all within the very beginning. The offenses are too fast for that, and don't necessarily need to draw a bunch to get out everything. Sure you might get a counter or two opening hand, but they'll have something else to RA with. In order to shut these offenses down, you need all your counters at the very beginning pretty much, not going to happen.

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Who uses Covenant with Moses or Covenant with David? I have indeed played Sam decks, and I know how they function, primarily with speed. If you don't get any anti-meta cards out in the first couple turns, then yes, most Samuel decks will have gotten a large enough advantage to win. However, with HHI out, Sam can't enter battle, Abby can't enter battle, no FBTNB heroes can enter battle - it really, really limits the options that Sam decks have.

Why would a Sam deck not use Cov W/ Moses? It runs Moses, stops Writ/Shroud/HHI, and is a 7/0 for your fbtnb...People don't run it because they are not seeing HHI enough, forgot about the card, or because the first Sam deck made that started stomping people didn't use it. HHI does severely hurt a Sam deck, I just think you are assuming all the counters are out at the very beginning. These decks are faster, and unless the defense gets lucky, they get what they need.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2012, 04:09:22 PM »

I think you have a false idea of what an anti-meta deck looks like this season. First off, it's not 63+ cards; an effective anti-meta can quite easily be built at 56 if the user chooses, though 63 may indeed be ideal. Second, artifacts are not the only thing that make an anti-meta deck what it is; take a look at what brown defenses look like this year. A Gates of Samaria defense supplemented by Broken Cisterns, Gomer, Uzzah, and Haman's Plot, not to mention various other evil enhancements is a force to be reckoned with unless a speed deck gets a truly superb draw. I simply don't think you've played anti-meta and so you have a bleak view of it.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #37 on:** February 03, 2012, 04:15:36 PM »

I've played extremely well-crafted antimeta decks, using stereotypical speed decks, and haven't lost but maybe one (and if I did it was 4-5). The most recent game had some horrible mistakes on my end, an unbelievable draw on my opponent's (cisterns out turn 1, IoJ on TGT turn 2), and I still won.

I really, really, really wish antimeta could be good, but it just takes so much luck to get something into place before the speed deck has already blown past that chokepoint.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #38 on:** February 03, 2012, 04:50:46 PM »

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I think you have a false idea of what an anti-meta deck looks like this season. First off, it's not 63+ cards; an effective anti-meta can quite easily be built at 56 if the user chooses, though 63 may indeed be ideal.

Wait, what!? I think you have a false idea of what you are trying to say. You say it CAN be effective at 56, but 63 is ideal, which is what I said.

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Second, artifacts are not the only thing that make an anti-meta deck what it is;

True, but those are the only counters you said.

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take a look at what brown defenses look like this year. A Gates of Samaria defense supplemented by Broken Cisterns, Gomer, Uzzah, and Haman's Plot, not to mention various other evil enhancements is a force to be reckoned with unless a speed deck gets a truly superb draw. I simply don't think you've played anti-meta and so you have a bleak view of it.

So you gave a commonly played defense this season, and said I have a bleak view of anti-meta decks. You gave artifacts as you counter, and gave a stereotypical defense. Majority of the opinions on here have said defenses are too weak this year to counter offenses, and you gave counters, and one defense, that's take A LOT to set up. If you look at your points you will see that by trying to justify defenses as being able to stop offenses, you actually unjustified it. You gave artifacts as your counter, said you need a good draw to set up, and gave 1 slow defense compared to all the fast, strong offenses this season. Trust me, I am a huge defensive heavy type 1 player, and past two seasons I have stopped all the top offenses, but this season I do not think I will be going this way, let alone type 1 at all, like I did in the past for fun.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #39 on:** February 03, 2012, 05:29:51 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 03, 2012, 02:13:02 PM

There's more than one kind of turtle offense; a small TGT or Isaiah offense can also quite easily be considered "Turtle," not to mention Saul/Paul or ET.

And there's even more options than that

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on February 03, 2012, 02:42:39 PM

No way, past two years I did exceptionally well with defensive heavy decks. Last year if you could stop TGT/Disciples you were good. The year before if you could stop Teal/Green or TealTomb, you were good. Now you have to stop everything.

I agree with Tyler that this is the main problem with Turtles this year. There are too many options for really strong offenses. And although the "anti-meta" cards mentioned in the above posts are nice, you have to draw them, and they are too easy to take out. The best is probably Naz + CP + HHI + temple + LotS. But that's asking a lot to get all together before you lose to a speedy offense.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #40 on:** February 03, 2012, 07:08:07 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on February 03, 2012, 04:50:46 PM

Wait, what!? I think you have a false idea of what you are trying to say. You say it CAN be effective at 56, but 63 is ideal, which is what I said.

"More than likely the Genesis deck will be fifty cards compared to the defensive heavy 63+." That is what you said; you didn't give any indication that a 56 card turtle was at all viable. I said 63 cards might be ideal, not that it definitely is, and honestly, I think 56 cards is probably better (though most anti-meta decks I've seen are at 63-70 cards, which I why I said 63 might be ideal).

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So you gave a commonly played defense this season, and said I have a bleak view of anti-meta decks. You gave artifacts as you counter, and gave a stereotypical defense. Majority of the opinions on here have said defenses are too weak this year to counter offenses, and you gave counters, and one defense, that's take A LOT to set up. If you look at your points you will see that by trying to justify defenses as being able to stop offenses, you actually unjustified it. You gave artifacts as your counter, said you need a good draw to set up, and gave 1 slow defense compared to all the fast, strong offenses this season. Trust me, I am a huge defensive heavy type 1 player, and past two seasons I have stopped all the top offenses, but this season I do not think I will be going this way, let alone type 1 at all, like I did in the past for fun.

Samaria is far from commonly played, and even less common in the form of a pure anti-meta. It doesn't even take a lot to set up if you actually put a few search cards in, and in the mean time, there's enough stuff it has that doesn't revolve around GoS itself to stall quite effectively. Worst comes to worst, site stall is entirely possible if necessary, since most GoS use between 4-6 Samarias, plus Nazareth. I never said that it would be winning any high level tournaments, and if you look at other threads, you'll note that I'm pretty well convinced that 50-52 card speed decks (generally Sam or Gardensciples) are the undisputed best. My point is that they are way more effective than you give them credit for, and they can most definitely do well against top offenses if built and piloted by a good player.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #41 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:43:03 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 03, 2012, 07:08:07 PM

I never said that it would be winning any high level tournaments, and if you look at other threads, you'll note that I'm pretty well convinced that 50-52 card speed decks (generally Sam or Gardensciples) are the undisputed best.

And really that is the point. In the current game, it seems to be impossible to win the highest level tournaments with turtle decks. That is why almost all the top players don't play them. This leads to lack of variety, and that is what I'd like to see change.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #42 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:29:51 PM »

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I never said that it would be winning any high level tournaments, and if you look at other threads, you'll note that I'm pretty well convinced that 50-52 card speed decks (generally Sam or Gardensciples) are the undisputed best.

I consistently say, HIGH-LEVEL or competitive tournament. Why would we be debating if defensive heavy decks are strong enough this year for locals...? I do think defensive heavy decks are strong, but this season they are not strong enough.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #43 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:30:26 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 03, 2012, 08:43:03 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 03, 2012, 07:08:07 PM
I never said that it would be winning any high level tournaments, and if you look at other threads, you'll note that I'm pretty well convinced that 50-52 card speed decks (generally Sam or Gardensciples) are the undisputed best.
And really that is the point. In the current game, it seems to be impossible to win the highest level tournaments with turtle decks. That is why almost all the top players don't play them. This leads to lack of variety, and that is what I'd like to see change.

Because turtle deck have and always will be lower tier compared to smaller, more efficient decks. Turtle decks have to be prepared for anything. There's too much in efficiency in them to win.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #44 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:41:25 PM »

I don't think its impossible, in fact I predict turtle will take nats this year. I can feel it in my feet.

If I am wrong I will personally renounce the SQF in all its greatness and give all of my ques to RDT. I kid you not. Counter bets?

lp670sv · « **Reply #45 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:58:55 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 03, 2012, 09:41:25 PM

I don't think its impossible, in fact I predict turtle will take nats this year. I can feel it in my feet. If I am wrong I will personally renounce the SQF in all its greatness and give all of my ques to RDT. I kid you not. Counter bets?

I'll take this. If the deck that wins this years nats is a turtle deck I'll wear a Tim Tebow jersey to the award ceremony (i had to pick something that people on the boards would understand WHY it was embarrassing for me. Let's not start a Tebow discussion again.)

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #46 on:** February 04, 2012, 08:19:47 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 03, 2012, 09:41:25 PM

I don't think its impossible, in fact I predict turtle will take nats this year. I can feel it in my feet. If I am wrong I will personally renounce the SQF in all its greatness and give all of my ques to RDT. I kid you not. Counter bets?

I like how you didn't specify what category.

Booster turtle FTW!

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #47 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:31:04 PM »

Type 1. I think you could say rank top 3 and people would still take the bet.

STAMP · « **Reply #48 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:43:36 PM »

Well if there's a surprising deck type that wins Nats this year, I'll put my money on the bet that it's in the hands of Mr. TimMierz!

Master KChief · « **Reply #49 on:** February 04, 2012, 03:21:57 PM »

I'll take the bet. If turtle wins this years nats, I will run up an escalator. Backwards.

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Author Topic: Defenses strong enough for turtle? (Read 9701 times)

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

TheHobbit13

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk