Author Topic: Deck refinement help (Read 7682 times)

Red · « **Reply #25 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:04:24 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on February 08, 2012, 08:48:49 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 08, 2012, 05:29:02 PM
Quote from: LordZardeck on February 08, 2012, 04:32:34 PM
It's two cards that have a VERY beneficial effect once played. besides, Captured Ark just shuffles them in, not discard. So you can get them back. Also, I found that people would rather DoN my Chariots than my RBD or Gifts.

To emphasize, in our own game, you only got a D3 off of me.

People (yourself included) will include 4-drachma coin in decks to get a D4 that kills the artifact AND requires another card in play to get that draw, yet getting "only a D3" with a card that stays up until your opponent has to either use their DoN or Captured Ark on it can't be justified to be included?

Because it isn't reliant on the other player.

Drrek · « **Reply #26 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:12:03 PM »

Quote from: Red on February 08, 2012, 09:04:24 PM

Quote from: Drrek on February 08, 2012, 08:48:49 PM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 08, 2012, 05:29:02 PM
Quote from: LordZardeck on February 08, 2012, 04:32:34 PM
It's two cards that have a VERY beneficial effect once played. besides, Captured Ark just shuffles them in, not discard. So you can get them back. Also, I found that people would rather DoN my Chariots than my RBD or Gifts.

To emphasize, in our own game, you only got a D3 off of me.

People (yourself included) will include 4-drachma coin in decks to get a D4 that kills the artifact AND requires another card in play to get that draw, yet getting "only a D3" with a card that stays up until your opponent has to either use their DoN or Captured Ark on it can't be justified to be included?
Because it isn't reliant on the other player.

I'd make the argument that Gifts is all that reliant on the other player either, how many decks, at least competitive ones, that don't implement at least a fair amount of drawing (I'll give you one, Genesis, which still has a couple drawing cards.)

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #27 on:** February 08, 2012, 11:40:18 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on February 08, 2012, 08:48:49 PM

People (yourself included) will include 4-drachma coin in decks to get a D4 that kills the artifact AND requires another card in play to get that draw, yet getting "only a D3" with a card that stays up until your opponent has to either use their DoN or Captured Ark on it can't be justified to be included?

There's a couple reasons for that. First off, Four-Drachma Coin does have another ability, which I've used quite in a bit in the past when looking at an Assyrian or Canaanite defense. It's most definitely useful outside the draw ability, even if most people don't use it for that. Second, it also fits much easier into a Disciples or Gardensciples theme. Most people, if using one of those two, are already going to use Peter to begin with, FDC just gives one more reason to add him. Both of those themes have enough strength behind their respective offenses that they can devote another card (even an artifact) to drawing, especially when that drawing is a D4. Third, he ended up getting the D3 off of his GotM in the game I mentioned because I wanted the D3 for myself more than I wanted him to NOT have it, so I blocked with Sabbath Breaker. He got the D3 because I was already 14 cards ahead of him, and I was going to shuffle it with Captured Ark next turn anyway. Many other players wouldn't make that choice.

Now don't get me wrong, Gifts of the Magi can be an excellent card. I wouldn't be caught dead without it in a Prophets deck, especially since I use Hur and Feast of Trumpets in a lot of my Prophets decks. The problem is it's a big target on the best of days, and doesn't tend to be all that good when splashed, except when it's gotten early on. 95% of the time there are better options.

lp670sv · « **Reply #28 on:** February 08, 2012, 11:44:18 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 08, 2012, 04:28:58 PM

Quote from: Drrek on February 08, 2012, 02:15:22 PM
Quote from: SomeKittens on February 08, 2012, 01:12:42 PM
Gifts is there for drawing off of Kindness, I think. You'd need much more forced drawing to justify it.

I have found this to be entirely untrue, you can generally rely on your opponents' having at least some drawing in their decks, and usually a lot of it.

But splashing it isn't effective. Any competent speed deck will have Captured Ark, and outside of a lucky draw, odds are, your opponent will draw both DoN and Captured Ark by the time you draw both RBD and Gifts of the Magi. Not to mention Foreign Sword.

Statements like these are really starting to bother me.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #29 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:06:03 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on February 08, 2012, 11:44:18 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 08, 2012, 04:28:58 PM
Any competent speed deck will have Captured Ark
Statements like these are really starting to bother me.

Although not EVERY speed deck will have Captured Ark, it is true that a LOT of speed decks will. This is simply because most artifacts that are used help defenses, and there are some anti-meta artifacts that can be problematic for most speed decks. So including ways to get rid of 3 of them in a game (Captured Ark + Destruction of Nehustan) is the most common choice.

This is a good thing to know when designing a deck, because it is something that you will see a lot of. Chronic is just trying to help out by giving this information. If you look at it that way, perhaps it will bother you less.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #30 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:35:53 AM »

I'll start this by saying that is probably just an example of me getting stuck in my ways, which I have a habit of doing, and I apologize if anyone took offense to the finality in my tone. Now that said, I mostly stick by that statement, and here's why: Redemption does have staple cards for different deck archetypes, and there are at least a few top players who would agree that Captured Ark is an absolute staple in any speed deck, at least in this meta, where artifacts like Rain Becomes Dust, Household Idols, and Hezekiah's Signet Ring can mess up an offense significantly. Even a card like Unholy Writ, which almost every deck uses, can be a big annoyance if not taken care of. It's important to be able to do deal with these quickly, and DoN can't always do the trick, especially with Lampstand out so much. I guess it's the equivalent of a card like Harvest Time. Some people don't use it if they don't have room, but more than a few people wouldn't be caught dead without it.

lp670sv · « **Reply #31 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:52:05 AM »

My problem is not in the statement that speed decks should have captured ark. Although I've never played it (mostly because I don't have one) I understand that it should be in every deck. It was in the wording. When you say something like "Every competent speed deck..." You thereby imply that anyone not playing the card is incompetent and doesn't know what they're doing. I don't mind telling new players that X card should probably be in their deck, that's what this section of the forum is for, but when it's worded in a way that can easily come across as demeaning it really shouldn't be said.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #32 on:** February 09, 2012, 11:24:49 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on February 09, 2012, 10:52:05 AM

My problem is not in the statement that speed decks should have captured ark. Although I've never played it (mostly because I don't have one) I understand that it should be in every deck. It was in the wording. When you say something like "Every competent speed deck..." You thereby imply that anyone not playing the card is incompetent and doesn't know what they're doing. I don't mind telling new players that X card should probably be in their deck, that's what this section of the forum is for, but when it's worded in a way that can easily come across as demeaning it really shouldn't be said.

My sentiments exactly. CA is a great card, and is in many speed decks, but that doesn't mean it should be in all of them. Nor does it mean that a deck without it is "incompetent."

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #33 on:** February 09, 2012, 12:43:19 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on February 09, 2012, 10:52:05 AM

My problem is not in the statement that speed decks should have captured ark. Although I've never played it (mostly because I don't have one) I understand that it should be in every deck. It was in the wording. When you say something like "Every competent speed deck..." You thereby imply that anyone not playing the card is incompetent and doesn't know what they're doing. I don't mind telling new players that X card should probably be in their deck, that's what this section of the forum is for, but when it's worded in a way that can easily come across as demeaning it really shouldn't be said.

That's why I apologized for the finality in my tone.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #34 on:** February 09, 2012, 01:46:49 PM »

Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #35 on:** February 09, 2012, 01:53:16 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 01:46:49 PM

Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit there?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #36 on:** February 09, 2012, 01:53:28 PM »

Any deck without Son of God is incompetent. Here's to you, Gabe

.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #37 on:** February 09, 2012, 03:00:36 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 09, 2012, 01:53:16 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 01:46:49 PM
Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit there?

I'm saying there's no artifact that poses a threat to a speed deck.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #38 on:** February 09, 2012, 03:12:14 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 03:00:36 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 09, 2012, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 01:46:49 PM
Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit there?
I'm saying there's no artifact that poses a threat to a speed deck.

Well, Covenant with Death comes to mind, and Unholy Writ and Magic Charms can be inconveniences, especially in TGT and Gardensciples decks. I'm not saying that there are any artifacts that can full-on stop a speed deck, however, there are plenty - including ones that are very commonly used - that can hinder a speed deck, and you'll almost always have a reason to use it at least once, even if just as a potential to get your opponent to use DoN, which means it's almost always worth a slot.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #39 on:** February 09, 2012, 04:12:34 PM »

Covenant of Death shouldn't slow a speed deck significantly. If anything, it stops banding and gives CM a block. Unholy Writ and Charms can easily be countered by Blue Tassels, which is a much better card to use instead of Captured Ark due to unlimited usage and assuredly getting around Charms. CA just shuffles the other artifact while Charms remains up.

Drrek · « **Reply #40 on:** February 09, 2012, 04:50:23 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 03:00:36 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 09, 2012, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 01:46:49 PM
Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit there?
I'm saying there's no artifact that poses a threat to a speed deck.

To me the only artifact that poses a threat to all speed decks is Rain Becomes Dust. However specific speed decks have artifacts that pose threats to them (such as Sam has troubles with Household Idols or Hezekiah's signet ring), but I agree that captured ark is far from necessary in all speed decks.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #41 on:** February 12, 2012, 04:41:40 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 04:12:34 PM

Covenant of Death shouldn't slow a speed deck significantly. If anything, it stops banding and gives CM a block. Unholy Writ and Charms can easily be countered by Blue Tassels, which is a much better card to use instead of Captured Ark due to unlimited usage and assuredly getting around Charms. CA just shuffles the other artifact while Charms remains up.

In a speed deck though, any possible advantage to get a turn ahead is a huge one. Giving CM a block can be game changing as many speed v. speed games end up with one of the decks winning by one turn. Covenant with Death rips through Samuel decks against any defense that's a decent size and well-built, and having a way to stop it can indeed be the difference between winning or losing, since a 14/14 band can only go so far (Household Idols also is devastating to Sam decks). I'd rather use Captured Ark over Blue Tassels because Captured Ark is more versatile. I don't believe Magicians are common enough to justify using Tassels over Ark, since that is the only artifact I can think of off the top of my head that would be worth it in general speed decks over Ark in some circumstances.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #42 on:** February 12, 2012, 09:39:24 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 12, 2012, 04:41:40 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 04:12:34 PM
Covenant of Death shouldn't slow a speed deck significantly. If anything, it stops banding and gives CM a block. Unholy Writ and Charms can easily be countered by Blue Tassels, which is a much better card to use instead of Captured Ark due to unlimited usage and assuredly getting around Charms. CA just shuffles the other artifact while Charms remains up.

In a speed deck though, any possible advantage to get a turn ahead is a huge one. Giving CM a block can be game changing as many speed v. speed games end up with one of the decks winning by one turn. Covenant with Death rips through Samuel decks against any defense that's a decent size and well-built, and having a way to stop it can indeed be the difference between winning or losing, since a 14/14 band can only go so far (Household Idols also is devastating to Sam decks). I'd rather use Captured Ark over Blue Tassels because Captured Ark is more versatile. I don't believe Magicians are common enough to justify using Tassels over Ark, since that is the only artifact I can think of off the top of my head that would be worth it in general speed decks over Ark in some circumstances.

Disagree. There are TONS of options for getting a turn ahead, and the chances of them actually paying off are slim.

The thing about all of this is it all depends on the draw. They have to draw CwD fast for it to properly hinder you, and that'd be extremely early, considering how fast Samuel is. If they get it that early, you're probably not going to get CA anyway.

Additionally, I've seen Charms many times. I've yet to see CwD. The commonality is subjective.

Note: You may be referring to the inferior red/purple (considering the 14/14 comment) Sam decks. The Teal/Green/Gold variation is much better, IMO, and definitely less hindered by CwD (one reason why I think it's better).

I'm done debating this. We'll see at NationalsinTNwhich is superior.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 12, 2012, 09:48:27 PM »

The problem is those counter artifacts are rarely used. Magic Charms is the most used of all them and then probably RBD so for a sam deck you should think long and hard about decking tassels. As for captured ark, I would rather be safe then sorry so I would deck it. If I had to pick I would have to go with tassels though, based on the sheer popularity of Magic Charms.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #44 on:** February 13, 2012, 12:20:01 AM »

Also be aware that Blue Tassels stops you from soulgenning with TAS.

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Author Topic: Deck refinement help (Read 7682 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Rawrlolsauce!

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

TheHobbit13