Author Topic: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"  (Read 1721 times)

Offline Egyptian

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General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« on: June 08, 2011, 05:56:10 PM »
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Howdy all

Regarding bad draws, often an excuse for poor results that will be offered by us mortal players (as opposed to those that win regional and national tournaments) is that we "got a bad draw." Either we didn't get enough heroes, enough evil characters, no enhancements (evil or good), or whatever the case may be. Or sometimes it's "my opponent didn't draw any lost souls."

But to go 6-0 or 7-0 to win a big tournament like a regional your deck has to draw well each and every game. And it has to draw well against other top decks. So setting aside the opponent's deck, consider that most decks usually have a smorgasbord of heroes, good enhancements, evil characters, evil enhancements, maybe some artifacts (to include covenants and curses). All T1 decks (56-card anyway) are going to have at least 7 lost souls and usually 6 or more dominants. So decks normally have a large variety of cards, and it would seem to this average mortal player that a deck can't possibly draw perfectly (or close to perfectly) every time...yet the top players do.

Or is it just an extraordinary run of luck for the top players? That's hard to believe given that we see the top players at or near the top of the standings in tournaments we play in. So I'm curious what aspect of deck design attempts to ensure that a deck will "draw well" - meaning - in the first few turns, you'll get the cards you need in the order you need them (maybe I have that wrong). I have a feeling that the top decks aren't just the standard 7's or 8's design, but I can't put my finger on what causes a deck to draw well all the time, or at least often enough to go 6-0 or 7-0 to win big tournaments. Perhaps those who have won big tournaments can offer some advice in this area. :-)


« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 06:01:51 PM by Egyptian »
Those who are merciful to the cruel will, in the end, be cruel to them that deserve mercy. -Midrash

Warrior_Monk

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 06:01:46 PM »
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The best players are the best deck builders, IMO. The best deck builders don't care about bad draws because they attempt to eliminate every possible excuse. On top of that, many are great players and don't make costly mistakes in game. This is primarily done by cutting the size of the deck, using lots of characters (primarily heroes), and using draw cards. It's why speed decks win so often. There is something to be said about bad draws though. It's most common in mirror games, when both are playing speed decks. Whoever draws best will probably win.

Offline Egyptian

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 06:07:56 PM »
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The best deck builders don't care about bad draws because they attempt to eliminate every possible excuse.

Okay, so what I am asking is how do they do this? What are the possible excuses, if you will? Do they play 50-card decks or 56-card decks. Do they care about drawing lost souls early? etc. I'm just trying to get a general idea of how to build a better deck. For years I've gone with the 7's or 8's basic deck design but that and a quarter won't get me a coffee at Starbuck's. Do they use massive amounts of heroes? Small defenses? (Which are great until you have no way to block!).  What brigades are used most often and why? I never get high enough in the standings to play a top player, so I have no idea what they are playing or what the principles of good deck design at the top echelon are.

Can anyone who has won a regional T1-2P tournament section offer some advice?
Those who are merciful to the cruel will, in the end, be cruel to them that deserve mercy. -Midrash

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 06:13:21 PM »
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I never get high enough in the standings to play a top player, so I have no idea what they are playing or what the principles of good deck design at the top echelon are.
Sounds like you need to sign up for ROOT which will be starting soon.  That will give you a chance to play some top players, and often they'll take time after a game to give some strategy/deck tips :)  If you want to sign up, simply go here.

Warrior_Monk

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 06:27:23 PM »
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The best deck builders don't care about bad draws because they attempt to eliminate every possible excuse.
Okay, so what I am asking is how do they do this?
This is primarily done by cutting the size of the deck, using lots of characters (primarily heroes), and using draw cards. It's why speed decks win so often.
What are the possible excuses, if you will?
There is something to be said about bad draws though. It's most common in mirror games, when both are playing speed decks. Whoever draws best will probably win.
Do they play 50-card decks or 56-card decks?
I know Gabe sticks to 50 card decks. It depends on the player, but most keep it 50-52.
Do they care about drawing lost souls early?
Them or their opponent? In either case, not really. Good decks will have ways to generate lost souls though, such as Hopper, Harvest Time, The Amalekite's Slave, Malchus, etc. to ensure they can win. That being said, it's always possible they draw tons of lost souls with no defense, and their opponents don't draw lost souls, and they can't draw the ways to generate souls. They just limit the chance of it by stuffing their decks with them.
Do they use massive amounts of heroes?
Yes. 8-10 at least.
Small defenses?
Yes. Usually about 10 cards (not including dominants). With all the fire power they need for offense, defense is what takes the hit. The idea is that they'll be able to stall their opponent just enough for them to win quickly.
What brigades are used most often and why?
Purple, White, and Teal. They're the fastest, although they're usually mixed with other things. Gardenciples (White/Purple) has been fairly popular. Disciples (purple) sometimes use blue or red, Garden Tomb sometimes uses gold, silver, or teal. Teal is seldom used alone, but the rest can all be mono too.

Rawrlolsauce!

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 06:49:07 PM »
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Luck plays a much larger part in the game then most would like to admit. This is not only getting a bad draw, but what your deck actually contains. If by chance your opponent's deck is even just a soft counter to yours, you're playing from behind for the entire game. A great example of this would be playing against a red deck and using philistines. It's just by luck my opponent is playing that. If I know it's popular I'll probably put something in my own deck in order to help me against red, but then if I don't end up playing against a red deck I'll still be playing from behind.

Now, I've never won a regionals beings I'm terrible at this game and got wrecked by John Earley, whom I still hold a grudge over beings he set aside half my defense and Son of God THE FIRST TURN IN THE GAME, but the most common school of thought on how to rectify this is to try and reduce luck as much as possible. To do this you need to do one of three things: go heavy on the defense, heavy on the offense, or heavy on the drawing. Defense heavy times out in tournaments, so I'll disregard that. You're now left with an either offense heavy deck or a draw-heavy deck (often they're combined to an extent). With an offense heavy deck, the idea is to overcommit to heroes to reduce your chances of being unable to make a rescue, and to win before your lack of defense can hurt you. With a draw heavy deck, the idea is to overcommit to drawing in order to reduce your chances of a bad draw.

On the aforementioned idea of countering-by-luck, this is avoided by adding counters to counters. If someone is playing phillies, most people add something to their deck that is good against red.

However, I'm not a fan of that second method of deck building. The thing that I've been a fan of, and that everyone else that I've talked to seems to hate, is actually relying on luck to win (but playing the odds sounds less nooby). I'm willing to just hope I don't play against a certain type of (unpopular) deck instead of teching against it, beings teching against it will put me at a disadvantage against decks that don't counter me. For example, at 2009 Regionals I checked in two decks, both were very similar: Garden Tomb offense with a Philistine-standalone defense. However, one of them had site access and the other didn't. I'm trying not to be showy, but that's going to fail in this example..... I consider myself a good player. I'm confident in both my deck building skills and my actually playing ability to the point where I feel that I can compete with the top players; essentially I feel that I'm better then most players. With that in mind, I recognize that when I'm playing someone I think I'm better then, I can put useless cards in my deck and still win. This is why I loaded up on site access in the first half of the tournament, I figured that I may need it in a small number of my games, but in the games where I don't, I still win despite those cards being useless. But once I started playing the top players (John Earley >:c), I switch my decks. I recognize these top players design the best deck they can in addition to their strong play. Sites (in 2009 at least, I always run site access now) were fairly weak, so anyone that was able to get to the top table is almost certainly not playing sites. Therefore, by removing the site access from my deck and adding different cards that will actually help me, I put myself in a more advantageous position.

This is relying on luck because if I do actually face a site deck in the top table, by total chance, I'm going to lose 99% of the time. The idea behind this, however, is that I'm willing to take a 2% chance at losing (facing a site deck), if it gives me a 55% chance of beating the top player I'm against, beings he has useless site access and I don't. If I happen to get paired against a top player in the early rounds by chance, I'm still in okay position. I'll have site access in my deck which takes up space, but so will he (so 50%). (This did actually happen at 2009 Regionals. Tim Maly third round. Yikes. But I won, so it's all good ;D)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 06:54:06 PM by Rawrlolsauce! »

Offline Isildur

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 07:43:45 PM »
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Quote
Luck plays a much larger part in the game then most would like to admit. This is not only getting a bad draw, but what your deck actually contains.
I am a person who is slaughtered by luck I am I think one of the most unluckiest people who plays Redemption and I think Gabe can back this up :p In Theory Split decks should give you a 50/50 chance of drawing cards of both good and evil yes? Well for me no it doesnt I will draw all of one or the other. So because of this I have to make 25/75 decks because other wise I get slaughtered. So I fully support the fact that Luck does play a HUGE part in the game.

I would also like to point out that in the past maybe 20+ games I played I havnt used my Son of God in more then 5 of those games AT MOST and NJ in none of those games. My Sog was hit in 90% of the other games the other ones I lost before I drew it.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 07:46:11 PM by Isildur »
3 Prophets Packs ftw

Offline redemptioncousin

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 09:13:21 PM »
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I must say, I am certainly a fan of the 75/25 (or greater) type deck.  Going 50/50 will, more often than not, doom you to "bad draws."  ...and its really just based on statistics.

The other thing to think about is enhancements.  I am also a strong believer in the fact that enhancements are close to useless.  The reasoning behind this is because of all the conditions for playing an enhancement (brigade match, battle, initiative... ect.).  So I think the best decks are those that are able to minimize enhancement usage. (TGT, Thad decks, FBNB, Watchful Servant/Zeb)  (and then defense... Phillies, Demons, Pharisees (minimal enhancements), autoblockers, ect).  Do you notice a trend?  When I went to regionals two weeks ago, I noticed 1 deck in probably the top 10 finishers that did not play one of these offenses or defenses, and that was someone playing a Thad deck with a Herod's defense (which, I must say worked quite well).  Just something to think about...
Gates of Hell is by far the best card in the game.  No questions asked.

Offline soul seeker

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 09:35:48 PM »
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I never get high enough in the standings to play a top player, so I have no idea what they are playing or what the principles of good deck design at the top echelon are.
Sounds like you need to sign up for ROOT which will be starting soon.  That will give you a chance to play some top players, and often they'll take time after a game to give some strategy/deck tips :)  If you want to sign up, simply go here.

Despite the shameless plug, I feel ROOT is beneficial and had helped me tremendously last year to prepare both myself and my deck for real life tournaments.  This year I've entered tournaments with less confidence and preparation because of my lack of participation.  Basically, without ROOT, I have to rely on instinct and deck building skills alone (a.k.a. little to no playtesting of my ideas).
noob with a medal

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 09:46:27 PM »
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..and your ability to crush Rochestarian's hopes and dreams.

I agree with Cuz.  I didn't know that his was the only Herods defense.  Powerful characters > Powerful enhancements.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 10:03:53 PM »
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I won't argue that in any drawing based card game, luck is a factor - What I've found is the decks that perform the best are the ones that eliminate as many of those luck based situations as possible.

Using this deck as an example I'll go through how you can build your deck to eliminate those situations that luck determines.

* Your opponent doesn't draw lost souls - This is a huge determining factor in the outcome of the game, if you don't have any lost souls to go after, it doesn't matter how high powered your offence is.
                - I countered this by including Hopper, Harvest Time, Woman at the Well, Samaritan Water Jar, Amalekites Slave, and Thankful Leper. Typically if you have 2-3 ways of generating lost souls you'll be set to counter this, Hopper, Harvest Time and Amalekites Slave are all easy to include in any deck.

* You don't draw any heroes - It doesn't matter how many ways you have to generate lost souls, if you don't have a hero to attempt a rescue.
              - I countered this by playing a whopping 12 heroes in a 50 card deck. When you consider that after taking out lost souls (because you redraw for them), and the initial draw of 8, my deck is now only 35 cards. So, in theory, even if I didn't draw any heroes in my opening draw, I'll get one every turn. (12/35 = 33%, so 1 of every 3 cards is a hero, I draw 3 a turn). I also make up for this situation by having a fairly speedy deck, so that I can draw more than 3 a turn to get even more heroes. Ideally you should have 10 heroes in a deck, even a non-speed one, to insure that you're drawing them at a decent clip.

* You don't draw any enhancements. - Those heroes you got are looking good, until your opponent drops a KoT on you.
            - I countered this by including heroes that can win battles on their own, or with very little assistance, again, I'm also playing a fairly speedy deck. Always try to find a way to include a hero that doesn't need enhancement support, I've found the FBTN heroes work well for this, almost every brigade has one. The ones that don't (White, Teal, Purple, Red) have other 'unbeatable' heroes - Thad-Rad-The-Mad, Garden Girls, Phineas or Z'Temple Guys, and well.. you'll have to wait until next year for Red.

* You don't draw matching enhancements.
          - If you're playing a multi-color deck, then this can be an issue, its all well and good to draw both heroes and enhancements, but what if they don't match up? I suggest playing one or two colors, and then going heavier with one, Multi-color battle winners are also a good idea - This well help to insure that you've got a matching combo. In the deck we're using as an example I was light on enhancements to start with, and then I included a multi-color battle winner that every hero in the deck could use, I was heavier in white, with one battle winner each for purple and gold.

* You don't draw dominants.
         - Even today with anti-dominant cards ala Judas' Plot, Pithom, etc, Dominants very much rule the game. The only way to counter this luck issue is with speed, and searching.

I feel that anything beyond these points is a deck-building issue, as opposed to a luck one. It shouldn't matter if you draw your evil characters/enhancements/lost souls if you sufficiently counter those points you should be able to win without those points mattering, that isn't to say you shouldn't include a defense at all, but you shouldn't need to rely on it to win.

RDT
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Offline redemptioncousin

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 10:42:40 PM »
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Just make sure you remember that RDT is coming from a pure speed (or extremely offense heavy) point of view.  Though his points are absolutely correct, you throw a lot of them out the window if your teching with anything over, say, a 8-10? card defense (which can absolutely still work).
Gates of Hell is by far the best card in the game.  No questions asked.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 10:46:13 PM »
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Oh, absolutely. The points are entirely different for a defensive heavy deck. I don't honestly like balanced decks, as the less of something you have, the more likely you are to not have it when you need it. Balanced decks have the least of everything.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 10:49:32 PM »
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The fact is that offensive heavy is the deck type that has been met with the most amount of success. They are the majority of the top decks.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: General Question regarding decks and "bad draws"
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 01:06:56 PM »
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This thread makes me want to vomit. I can't wait until next season!
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

 


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