Cactus Game Design Message Boards

9 hero enhancements

built on the rock
the body of christ (priests)
two bears
blessings
aocp
zeal for the lord
words of encouragement
reach of desperation
trumpet blast

4 fortresses

raider's camp
high priest's palace
the tabernacle
trap of the devil

3 covenants

I am healing
I am grace
covenant of noah

6 artifacts

book of the covenant
lampstand of the sanctuary
holy grail
golden calf
asherah pole
unholy writ

2 curses

unknown nation
confusion of mind

9 dominants

son of god
new jerusalem
angel of the lord
grapes of wrath
guardian of your souls
falling away
christian martyr
destruction of nehushtan
burial

10 evil characters

saul/paul
king pekahiah
pharisees
pharisees
pharisees
ahithophel
naaman
sabbath breaker
entrapping pharisee
syrian archer

12 evil enhancements

snare
demonic snare
deadly snare
syrian victory
hard bondage
night raid
just a hireling
strange fire
false peace
love of money
confusion 
healing of naaman

8 lost souls

cannot be prevented
lost souls 2 line
female only
nt only
first round protect
shuffler
anti-burial
exchanger

Defensive strategy is either "capture/sacrifice ec" with Raider's Camp, or CBN capture with Asherah Pole.  Also use Confusion to see opp's deck and also remove what would be the biggest threat (Maybe Grapes?).  Offesnive strategy is to convert Saul once we can protect him and use the battle winners + SOG/NJ for the win.

I agree with JSB, but I'll give reasons.

Grapes destroys Paul. if you can pick it off, great. furthermore, you can't set Saul/Paul down until the end of the game. they could Mayhem/Angel you. there's way too many factors now with heroless to make it viable. also, in heroless, you need to completely destroy their entire offense. this can't do that. it can merely stall for awhile.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on August 02, 2010, 03:47:07 PM

I agree with JSB, but I'll give reasons.

Grapes destroys Paul. if you can pick it off, great. furthermore, you can't set Saul/Paul down until the end of the game. they could Mayhem/Angel you. there's way too many factors now with heroless to make it viable. also, in heroless, you need to completely destroy their entire offense. this can't do that. it can merely stall for awhile.

I agree that TxP made Heroless harder, which I don't think was fair since few people used it anyway.  Grapes would simply delay my use of Paul so that I would have to use Holy Grail on him a second time.  Regarding Mayhem/AOTL (or Martyr), this is what I am Healing and High Priest's Palace are for, isn't it (which by the way protects half of my defense from AOCP)?  I'm not sure why you say I can't set him down until the end of the game.  I would think I can set him down and start using him once he is protected.  If the entire offense needs destroying I could always throw a Wrath of Satan in there if I had to, but I have six captures, a Grapes, a Martyr, an Unholy Writ, and the ability to bury 4 lost souls as it is.  Seems like a pretty strong defense to me. And if A Pole and Raider's Camp are out, and they are not using huge banding chains, I only have to block every other turn anyway.  Throw in a lucky use of Confusion to get their Grapes of Son of God out of their deck, and it seems pretty competitive.

It seems to me that if it went against someone who already knew what deck I was using and prepared beforehand, then OF COURSE it would fail, but against random tournament decks, I'm hoping it would have a shot.

perhaps you've forgotten that Built on the Rock doesn't stick on Paul. once he's shuffled, he loses that protection.
I missed HPP. which is why I said you'd have to hold it until the end, since a Mayhem would kick out Healing of Namaan.
strong enough to stall, yes, but kill all their heroes? no. in a heroless you MUST. kill all their heroes.

this deck would be quite a bit better if you put in Strange Fire and took out Raider's Camp.

this deck would be quite a bit better if you put in Strange Fire and took out Raider's Camp.

Lol, Strange Fire is in there

Quote from: stefferweffer on August 02, 2010, 04:01:23 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on August 02, 2010, 03:47:07 PM

I agree with JSB, but I'll give reasons.

Grapes destroys Paul. if you can pick it off, great. furthermore, you can't set Saul/Paul down until the end of the game. they could Mayhem/Angel you. there's way too many factors now with heroless to make it viable. also, in heroless, you need to completely destroy their entire offense. this can't do that. it can merely stall for awhile.

I agree that TxP made Heroless harder, which I don't think was fair since few people used it anyway.  Grapes would simply delay my use of Paul so that I would have to use Holy Grail on him a second time.  Regarding Mayhem/AOTL (or Martyr), this is what I am Healing and High Priest's Palace are for, isn't it (which by the way protects half of my defense from AOCP)?  I'm not sure why you say I can't set him down until the end of the game.  I would think I can set him down and start using him once he is protected.  If the entire offense needs destroying I could always throw a Wrath of Satan in there if I had to, but I have six captures, a Grapes, a Martyr, an Unholy Writ, and the ability to bury 4 lost souls as it is.  Seems like a pretty strong defense to me. And if A Pole and Raider's Camp are out, and they are not using huge banding chains, I only have to block every other turn anyway.  Throw in a lucky use of Confusion to get their Grapes of Son of God out of their deck, and it seems pretty competitive.

It seems to me that if it went against someone who already knew what deck I was using and prepared beforehand, then OF COURSE it would fail, but against random tournament decks, I'm hoping it would have a shot.

perhaps you've forgotten that Built on the Rock doesn't stick on Paul. once he's shuffled, he loses that protection.
I missed HPP. which is why I said you'd have to hold it until the end, since a Mayhem would kick out Healing of Namaan.
strong enough to stall, yes, but kill all their heroes? no. in a heroless you MUST. kill all their heroes.

To win, I do not have to "kill" ANYONE, do I?  I merely have to get to 5 lost souls before my opponent does.  Please link me to a heroless deck like you describe, that has as its goal discarding (permanently I assume) ALL of an opponent's heroes before it can win the game.  My point is that I'm simply trying to present an alternate defense to the traditional heroless decks I have seen, and this 63 card version gets to those key cards faster than most heroless decks, hastened by its ability to draw 9 cards.

Nevertheless, adding a Wrath of Satan might not be a bad idea for this deck.

Heroless has to get rid of the opponent's heroes in order to win. Wraith is saying that since you just put them in Raider's Camp, you only stall them, rather than incapaciate them, and so your offense will never get time to set up.

I agree with Wraith.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on August 02, 2010, 04:23:16 PM

Quote from: stefferweffer on August 02, 2010, 04:22:12 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on August 02, 2010, 04:20:32 PM

this deck would be quite a bit better if you put in Strange Fire and took out Raider's Camp.

Lol, Strange Fire is in there

missed that. regardless, Raider's Camp NEEDS to come out. letting them have their heroes back is the last thing you want to do.

I agree that Raider's Camp is likely the most essential card in the deck.  Being 63 cards (small for heroless from what I have seen), having Sabbath Breaker, and False Peace help in this regard.  I thought about adding Zaccheus too, but once you make a rescue attempt you open yourself up to a world of hurt if you are not ready for what comes next (like Confusion!).

I wasn't saying that it was essential. I was saying it's working against you. since you need to somehow get rid of all their heroes. They have all game to attack you. you have to wait all game.

as for the decks I'm talking about, here and here are examples of the deck I'm talking about. RR and Godspeed777's must have been deleted in the purge.

My brother tried playing a deck like this and your biggest problem is going to be is is your opponent uses AOTL on saul because they will eventually relize what your doing and also you'll need a stronger defense.

AotL isn't a problem with Healing of Namaan. you just need to not set him down until you have both in your hand.

I'm not sure what the new face of heroless is. Grapes of Wrath nullifies Built on the Rock.

perhaps you've forgotten that Built on the Rock doesn't stick on Paul. once he's shuffled, he loses that protection.

Heroless doesn't have a new face. it really doesn't have any face anymore.

I wouldn't play a gray defense with heroless. Infact I would never play straight gray. Imo gray is the worst straight defensive brigade in the game  currently (for two player), because its captures can be negated ( mostly) and are easy to get around with all of the capture protection out there. Grey also has a huge weakness to FBTN (even with Naaman) which is still splashed into decks a lot.  And on top of all that TGT runs grey out of the building because of its lack of territory protection. Yes you heard me right, and I do know what RDJ does. I am not harping on your deck, it is greys fault not yours....

Quote from: Ring Wraith on August 02, 2010, 05:00:45 PM

Quote from: CJSports on August 02, 2010, 04:59:43 PM

My brother tried playing a deck like this and your biggest problem is going to be is is your opponent uses AOTL on saul because they will eventually relize what your doing and also you'll need a stronger defense.

AotL isn't a problem with Healing of Namaan. you just need to not set him down until you have both in your hand.

AOTL is also not a problem because of High Priest's Palace.

I wasn't aware that Saul was either a Pharisee or a Sadduccee?