Author Topic: The power of prayer (Read 27909 times)

lightningninja · « **Reply #25 on:** December 27, 2009, 09:54:45 PM »

I think you misunderstood that scripture. Those who are called get what they ask for, NOT anything that is according to God's purpose will be granted. I am one of God's children, aka called according to his purpose. So I am allowed to pray to God and expect results. Not because I'm using Him, but because he tells me to ask.

Also, it was obviously God's purpose for me to win nationals, so I don't really get your argument. Is there anything wrong for praying to God, hoping that what you want is for his purpose?

Master KChief · « **Reply #26 on:** December 27, 2009, 09:57:48 PM »

you're not praying for gods will. you're praying for YOUR will.

'god, will you please make my opponent draw lost souls?'
'god, can you please make me win this rescue attempt?'
'god, can you please make me draw perfect heroes?'
'god, can i please have a ferrari?'

where in ANYWHERE of this does this indicate gods will be done? seriously, you need to get back to reality. god has said no MANY times to his children in the bible. just because you ask for things does NOT mean you will always get them. read this. hope it helps.

Shofarblower · « **Reply #27 on:** December 27, 2009, 10:09:09 PM »

First and foremost, I do appreciate LN's testimony. I agree that God can and does care about the little things in our lives. I know that there are extremes on both sides of the fence in regards to the prosperity teaching. Some say, "It is yours for the taking, just name it and claim it", I feel that this is wrong. Some say, "We are sinful wretches and deserve nothing, material things remove us from God's presence so we should just live in hovels and eat bread and drink water and we will be holy", this is very wrong.

I think we should dwell somewhere in the middle. If we ask and do not recieve, could it be that we ask amiss? If LN asked for God to help him win the games or if he asked for God to help his self esteem, and God just used the card game to those ends, it doesn't matter. God helped him. It was probably not to allow LN bragging rights or to take someone who was undeserving down. It may have simply been to build him up and give him the confidence needed to do something greater down the road. God cannot use a believer who has no confidence at all, and I am living proof that God will use little victories to build up your confidence for something greater.

Is God a "vending machine"? NO. Do we "have not because we ask not"? YES. I hear people complaining all the time that we don't have power like the deciples had. Jesus told them that they didn't have power because of thier lack of faith. If we don't think God will help us in the little things we ask for, how can we trust that he has truly saved us? Yet, we have a dangerous road that we walk, because we ask for something from God, that doesn't mean it is good for us to have. So we mus trust in His infinite wisdom and look to him for our needs first.

LN, you put this in your testimony, "not in a "my mom's God" way", I like that. I have been teaching about the patriarchs for years now and one thing I have noticed is that they all had two specific periods in thier lives. One time when they prayed and said "the God of my father" then after significant experience, "My God", was at the front of thier prayers. We all need that "My God" experience. I am glad that you have made that statement.

Blessings Brother,

Kevin

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #28 on:** December 27, 2009, 10:44:59 PM »

I believe God will do whatever ultimately benefits the overall faithfulness of humankind in the way of answering prayers. If you think about it, it really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. In this case, the fulfilling of LN's prayer was probably an act meant to increase his faith (as well as the faith of those who hear his testimony). My first impression when I read this was similar to MKC's (although I'm never fond of MCK's presentation), in that I don't believe God will answer every prayer you throw at him in faith, and I hope no one gets that impression.

lightningninja · « **Reply #29 on:** December 28, 2009, 12:32:42 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on December 27, 2009, 10:44:59 PM

I believe God will do whatever ultimately benefits the overall faithfulness of humankind in the way of answering prayers. If you think about it, it really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. In this case, the fulfilling of LN's prayer was probably an act meant to increase his faith (as well as the faith of those who hear his testimony). My first impression when I read this was similar to MKC's (although I'm never fond of MCK's presentation), in that I don't believe God will answer every prayer you throw at him in faith, and I hope no one gets that impression.

I hope I didn't make that impression, it definitely wasn't my intention.

NotOfThisWorld66 · « **Reply #30 on:** December 28, 2009, 01:07:28 AM »

In answer to MKC,

Get real? That's what I'm doing! What does the scripture say? God gives us richly all things for our enjoyment. I think you need to look at the scriptures and find scriptural proof that what LN and I say is wrong. You won't find any.

True, there are some things you may ask for that God does not want you to have, first of all because it may be ungodly (such things as help with wizardry and witchcraft, help in killing someone for an unjust purpose, or even just a toy or video game or movie that is outright ungodly and devilish), second of all because it may be a distraction to your relationship with God, and finally because it may prevent something great happening that will not happen if you have it. But the Bible says if you ask for anything according to God's will, it will be done for you. Jesus Christ, the master, the Lord of all believers, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, said it. If you didn't look up the scripture I mentioned, you'd better do it.

If the Scripture says we're supposed to be poor, have nothing, and be in lack, then let's do it. But it doesn't say that. If I asked you to name me one Scripture that says that, you wouldn't have any answer. God isn't just our God, our Master, He's our loving Father who cares for His kids. The Bible says He delights in the prosperity of His servant. That's you and me. Jesus says multiple times in the Gospel accounts that you can have what you ask for as long as it is according to His will and in Jesus' Holy name.

To put it simply, if it's not in the Bible, it's not true. Simple as that. Everything in the Bible is completely accurate and true, and thus trumps all science, laws, physics, or anything else. So far you have not given me one scripture to back up your case, and therefore I have good reason to believe what you say is wrong.

Finally, what are you running from? You're being robbed of great joy and contentment that I have personally experienced, and so have many many others! Why would you run away from this without examining it?

Master KChief · « **Reply #31 on:** December 28, 2009, 01:37:47 AM »

Quote from: edsnotofthisworld on December 28, 2009, 01:07:28 AM

In answer to MKC,

Get real? That's what I'm doing! What does the scripture say? God gives us richly all things for our enjoyment. I think you need to look at the scriptures and find scriptural proof that what LN and I say is wrong. You won't find any.

True, there are some things you may ask for that God does not want you to have, first of all because it may be ungodly (such things as help with wizardry and witchcraft, help in killing someone for an unjust purpose, or even just a toy or video game or movie that is outright ungodly and devilish), second of all because it may be a distraction to your relationship with God, and finally because it may prevent something great happening that will not happen if you have it. But the Bible says if you ask for anything according to God's will, it will be done for you. Jesus Christ, the master, the Lord of all believers, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, said it. If you didn't look up the scripture I mentioned, you'd better do it.

If the Scripture says we're supposed to be poor, have nothing, and be in lack, then let's do it. But it doesn't say that. If I asked you to name me one Scripture that says that, you wouldn't have any answer. God isn't just our God, our Master, He's our loving Father who cares for His kids. The Bible says He delights in the prosperity of His servant. That's you and me. Jesus says multiple times in the Gospel accounts that you can have what you ask for as long as it is according to His will and in Jesus' Holy name.

To put it simply, if it's not in the Bible, it's not true. Simple as that. Everything in the Bible is completely accurate and true, and thus trumps all science, laws, physics, or anything else. So far you have not given me one scripture to back up your case, and therefore I have good reason to believe what you say is wrong.

Finally, what are you running from? You're being robbed of great joy and contentment that I have personally experienced, and so have many many others! Why would you run away from this without examining it?

apparantly you've glossed over everything basically everyone has said. god will provide according to his will, not yours. you say ask for a wii and you will get it. that is not always the case. if he doesnt want you to have a wii, then you will not have it. you make it seem that one must merely ask for it and they will receive it, and you couldnt be further from the truth. this is not saying anyone is to live 'poor', 'have nothing', or 'be in 'lack', because that is not always the case for everyone. but if it is gods will, then it will be so. god allowed the people of israel to go hungry to teach a lesson and prove a point. jesus said no to healing lazarus to later reveal his true plan. nothing you've said previous suggested you asked according to gods will (which you just recently changed to be the case in your latest post), and that was what i pointed out to be wrong. it is materialistic and selfish to ask god to fulfill your own worldly desires. read my scripture again, as well as the article i have linked to, and maybe you'll truly see the position i stand on this.

Red · « **Reply #32 on:** December 28, 2009, 07:58:53 AM »

mkc you pulled something called a cheapshot btw on responce to the stupid link you don't pray to rengernate the leg you pray to allow them to survive.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #33 on:** December 28, 2009, 10:03:58 AM »

It sure would be nice if we still had moderators. Flame wars in a Testimonial thread? Wow.

NotOfThisWorld66 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 28, 2009, 02:57:13 PM »

If you ask me, this is the wrong time and place to do this. But for now I will make my arguement clear.

Uh, you just agreed with me. God will provide according to His will (God should be capitalized, mind you). But it isn't selfish to ask for your "worldly" desires. Do you ask your dad for "worldly" things? Of course you do: video games, movies, etc. So, since God is your Father, you can ask Him for that, too.

"I find this statement to be completely blinded and narrow-minded"...Excuse me?!?!? WHAT did you just say? How on earth can that statement be narrow minded? If it is, then you can't guarantee that Jesus died and rose again, which is simply not the case. Thus you can't believe what you just said and know the Bible is true, because if something in the Bible is not true, how do you know any of it is true?

Another thing to add is this: The goodness of God leads men to repentance. Having these great things can be a witness to unbelievers that there truly is a God and that He truly loves His kids. That is not to say they should get saved to get rich and get a bunch of stuff, but they see that God really cares about His kids. Here is a Scripture that completely prove my point, "Whatsoever things you ask for in prayer, believe that you receive them and you shall have them". I don't think that's even a paraphrase. Mark 11:24 KJV. How can you argue with that? You can't. Here's another list of Scriptures:

1 Timothy 6:17
Matthew 7:7-8
Proverbs 10:6
Proverbs 10:22
Proverbs 11:10-11
Proverbs 11:25

And there are many more. What scripture do you have to back up your case?

Again, this is not the proper place to do this: maybe we could open a new thread? And I do not want to appear (once again) rude or spiteful. I enjoy a good debate every now and then, and I also want to show you the truth, not just to prove that I might be right, but to give you new light on what the scriptures say. Please tell me if I'm getting carried away with myself, once again. I don't want to get such a great testimonial thread locked.

Master KChief · « **Reply #35 on:** December 28, 2009, 03:13:32 PM »

first you said that if you ask in earnest faith, you will ALWAYS receive (prime example: your wii). then you change your argument to match mine (you will receive according to gods will, not your own). no argument here, because you basically changed your argument to mine and proved my point.

as for your scriptural references (which you consistently harp on, upon which i never had a problem with), you take them completely out of context. 'ask and you will receive', yes. what if i ask god for something, yet he says no? that proves this statement false at face value. what matters is the context in which it is used. it doesnt mean you can ask for anything your heart desires and god will always give it to you. god has said no to many of his children. what it means is you will receive according to gods will. that is the point i am trying to make here.

and yes, you are quite narrow-minded. 'if its not in the bible, its not true'. seriously? listen to yourself, consider what you say. 2+2=4 isnt in the bible, yet it is obviously true. there are many things not in the bible that are obviously true.

NotOfThisWorld66 · « **Reply #36 on:** December 28, 2009, 06:53:26 PM »

You know what I meant by "if it's in the Bible it's not true". You know for a fact I didn't mean 2+2 doesn't equal 4 just because it's not in the Bible. I meant that as far as religious beliefs go. The Law of Gravity isn't in the Bible, does that make it not true? Of course not. Again, I mean that as far as religion goes.

Earlier in the argument I did misspeak, saying that whatever you ask God for you receive. That was my mistake. But my belief was still the same, that you have to ask God according to His will and in Jesus' name. My point is simply that it is not wrong to ask God for something, and it is not a "you just never know" situation. If it is a godly thing that you keep in its proper place in your life, then you can have it. A Wii is not ungodly, and I keep it in it's proper place (a.k.a. not putting it before God), therefore I can have it. If God says no to a prayer, it's because the thing is ungodly, a distraction, or because it is going to hinder something from happening that God wants to happen.

And you still haven't given me a scripture to support yourself this whole time. Until you give a Scripture, I do not have any reason to believe what you say about prosperity is true. So please, in your next post, give me a scripture and I'll delve into it until I find an answer.

Master KChief · « **Reply #37 on:** December 28, 2009, 07:05:05 PM »

Quote

And you still haven't given me a scripture to support yourself this whole time. Until you give a Scripture, I do not have any reason to believe what you say about prosperity is true. So please, in your next post, give me a scripture and I'll delve into it until I find an answer.

ok, thats like me saying until you not provide a scripture, i have no reason to believe what you say. c'mon. enough with the circular logic.

first, ask yourself what im really 'saying about prosperity'. whats my stance? is it different from your position? if so, then ask yourself if i have provided a scripture reference to support my position (if you actually look at previous posts, you will find one).

i do still disagree with your perspective that if you ask for something not 'ungodly', then you will always get it. it seems you consistently change your position on this. first you claimed that if you ask for it, you will always receive. then you changed it to if you ask according to gods will, then you will receive. now, you've changed it yet again to as long as its not 'ungodly', then you can have it. i just cant take you seriously if your arguments change on a whim.

Shofarblower · « **Reply #38 on:** December 28, 2009, 07:41:24 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 28, 2009, 07:05:05 PM

enough with the circular logic.

I have quietly sat by for the last day or so and watched this debate rage. I feel that I must respond to this. If we say "enough with circular logic" then everything is up for reevaluation.

E.G.

2+2=4 so therefore 4-2=2 is circular logic (cyclical reasoning is my preferred term though)

If the bible is true then everything in it must be true. This is cyclical reasoning.

If history proves the scriptures, then scripture proves history. same thing

In regard to MKC not using scripture as a reference. First, he is stating his opinion and has been very open about that. It is my opinion that the gifts that the Wise men brought to Jesus at his birth was the treasure from Daniel's wealth. I can't prove it scripturaly (without a doubt) so I don't feel I need to offer scripture in support of my opinion. I will also point out that he has presented at least 2 links to teachings, that did have scripture references all throughout. I don't think he would have presented the link if the scriptures presented in the teachings did not support his view.

This thread started out as a guy praising his God for using a small thing like Redemption to help boost his self esteem, it has turned into a poop throwing match and I am not very happy with where it is going. I would like to say at this point that, prayer is a crucial point in all believer's lives. It is not solely used to beg for things. If it is then you should really review your prayer life. Jesus prayed all through the Gospels. I think we should focus on the outline he gave us in the Lord's Prayer.

Praise God- (Our Father in Heaven, You are Holy)
Desire to do His will- (May your Kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven)
Ask for our NEEDS - (give us this day our daily bread)
Ask for forgiveness - (forgive us our sins)
Offer forgiveness - (as we forgive those who sinned against us)
Ask for Guidance - (lead us away from temptation, and deliver us from evil)
Praise Him some more - (for Yours is the Kingdom and the Power, and the Glory forever)
Conclude - (Amen) {which means "may it be so"}

Not saying that this is the only prayer pattern. Honestly though we should have respect enough for our Father to spend more time praising Him than asking for stuff.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #39 on:** December 28, 2009, 09:15:20 PM »

I try not to ask for things from God because His plan is always better than I could have thought to ask for:

Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 3:20,21

I was reminded of the old saying:

I prayed for a Cadillac, and God gave me my choice.
But God had in mind, for me, a Rolls Royce.

Red · « **Reply #40 on:** December 28, 2009, 09:40:50 PM »

yeah i'v sat on my rear watchin you guys go to each ohoters thoats and i'm SICK OF IT just agree to disagree O.K?

Master KChief · « **Reply #41 on:** December 28, 2009, 09:45:14 PM »

Quote from: RED on December 28, 2009, 09:40:50 PM

yeah i'v sat on my rear watchin you guys go to each ohoters thoats and i'm SICK OF IT just agree to disagree O.K?

understood. i apologize if i've come off brash or bull-headed. i just feel very strongly about people trying to use god like a vending machine.

Red · « **Reply #42 on:** December 28, 2009, 09:49:21 PM »

thank you so thank you again.

Shofarblower · « **Reply #43 on:** December 28, 2009, 10:42:10 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 28, 2009, 09:45:14 PM

Quote from: RED on December 28, 2009, 09:40:50 PM
yeah i'v sat on my rear watchin you guys go to each ohoters thoats and i'm SICK OF IT just agree to disagree O.K?

understood. i apologize if i've come off brash or bull-headed. i just feel very strongly about people trying to use god like a vending machine.

MKC, I am proud of you man. You may have been a little harsh, but no more than any other person who got a little emotional. Yet you offer apologies. Good Show Old Man (he said with a bad Brittish accent).

NotOfThisWorld66 · « **Reply #44 on:** December 28, 2009, 11:45:08 PM »

I agree to disagree.

I also apologize for being rude here. In debates I tend to be very strong-willed, especially if it's about scripture. This whole thing is ridiculous, and is taking away from what LN was trying to say, and that's my fault.

Truce? (waves white flag)

lightningninja · « **Reply #45 on:** December 29, 2009, 03:21:36 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 28, 2009, 09:45:14 PM

Quote from: RED on December 28, 2009, 09:40:50 PM
yeah i'v sat on my rear watchin you guys go to each ohoters thoats and i'm SICK OF IT just agree to disagree O.K?

understood. i apologize if i've come off brash or bull-headed. i just feel very strongly about people trying to use god like a vending machine.

Apology accepted? Maybe if you didn't end with another jab at my testimony. I wasn't using God as a vending machine. That's just your argument again, not an apology. And feeling strongly and being downright rude are completely different. You don't end an apology with a justification of what you did wrong.

Master KChief · « **Reply #46 on:** December 29, 2009, 12:33:23 PM »

i dont feel i did anything wrong in regards to what i believe in. in my last statement, did i say you were using god as a vending machine? no, i believe it was a rather general statement. if you do not treat god this way, then you have nothing to worry about, nor argue incessantly about, now do you?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #47 on:** December 29, 2009, 12:40:06 PM »

I took MKC's statement as a generalization, rather than an accusation. I agree that his apology seemed sincere and rather studly. No wonder his girlfriend bought him a plasma TV.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #48 on:** December 30, 2009, 08:14:11 PM »

I thought that was because he asked God for one?

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #49 on:** December 30, 2009, 08:18:37 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 30, 2009, 08:14:11 PM

I thought that was because he asked God for one?

Zing.

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Author Topic: The power of prayer (Read 27909 times)

NotOfThisWorld66

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