Author Topic: The issue with Silver  (Read 21358 times)

Offline Alpho

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2010, 01:17:44 AM »
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Not much to say that has not been said. Other than that I think the fact that Angels work best with other brigades is a good thing. I love to use Silver and I got to say that I like how the angels can band to so many different brigades! Oh and yes they can band to one another. Just look at Army of the Lord!

Offline The M

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2010, 05:39:44 PM »
-1
Silver users are bums. One could say they need to get a Job >:c.
i gave you a one up because it was funny. not because i agreed with it spaz.
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The Schaef

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2010, 10:25:19 AM »
+3
Here's the way I see silver.  Since Warriors, they have had some of the beefiest characters of any brigade: mainly Mike, Strong Angel and Captain.  Add Gathering and any other angel becomes a Super-Captain.  Silver also has a number of significant battle winners it has accumulated over the years.  Finally, with Angel Wars, it got an entire set with the offense dedicated exclusively to silver.

As far back as Priests, I was able to make a silver offense using all NT angels, with Covenant of Eden, Chamber of Angels and Fourth Living Creature.  For those keeping score at home, that's an offense protected from discard, remove and capture and has access to all the major "restricted" Lost Souls (NT, */4, female since I had Arianna and Kira), and at various turns could protect my hand, deck, Lost Souls, etc from my blocking opponents.

It's true that a lot of silver cards - especially newer ones - are situationally awesome, but in those situations, they are beasts.  Even Attending Angel, for which I will take the credit/blame for its new ability, can do a lot against poison decks and orange/pale decks that like to do paralysis and/or Blindness immunity.

With Disciples, and to a lesser extent Thesaurus, there was an opportunity to explore another aspect of silver that hasn't been propped up as much in the years since Warriors, and that was how well they support a human second brigade.  Silver/blue and silver/purple were popular themes back in the days of yore.  More recently, I've seen decks that were a combination of silver/teal and sometimes a third color (either royals or prophets).

In the past, there have been concerns that giving brigades powerful cards of a certain type would lead to "cookie-cutter" themed decks, with a lot of the best choices being obvious.  But brigades need strong cards that coordinate with each other in order to stand alone well.  Brigades also need viable options to mix and match with other brigades, to encourage multi-brigade use as well.  Similarly, you need cards that punish players for using only one brigade, and you need cards that punish players for splashing.  It all seems like it contradicts each other, but in the big picture, you want players to be able to have success in a lot of different ways, and you want players to be able to stop each other in a lot of different ways.

Silver has always been a strong brigade and IMO is still a strong brigade.  Historically it has had excellent characters but Enhancements that were more situational and not always pure battle winners.  I personally thought the Destroyer pack in RoA was a nice boost to silver, and though the recent trend is to increase its value as a support brigade, I don't think there's any reason to worry that silver won't continue to get strong standalone cards in the future.

In short, I think the biggest problem with standalone silver right now is that the other colors are finally catching up to it.

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2010, 10:30:22 AM »
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Here's the way I see silver.  Since Warriors, they have had some of the beefiest characters of any brigade: mainly Mike, Strong Angel and Captain.  Add Gathering and any other angel becomes a Super-Captain.  Silver also has a number of significant battle winners it has accumulated over the years.  Finally, with Angel Wars, it got an entire set with the offense dedicated exclusively to silver.

As far back as Priests, I was able to make a silver offense using all NT angels, with Covenant of Eden, Chamber of Angels and Fourth Living Creature.  For those keeping score at home, that's an offense protected from discard, remove and capture and has access to all the major "restricted" Lost Souls (NT, */4, female since I had Arianna and Kira), and at various turns could protect my hand, deck, Lost Souls, etc from my blocking opponents.

It's true that a lot of silver cards - especially newer ones - are situationally awesome, but in those situations, they are beasts.  Even Attending Angel, for which I will take the credit/blame for its new ability, can do a lot against poison decks and orange/pale decks that like to do paralysis and/or Blindness immunity.

With Disciples, and to a lesser extent Thesaurus, there was an opportunity to explore another aspect of silver that hasn't been propped up as much in the years since Warriors, and that was how well they support a human second brigade.  Silver/blue and silver/purple were popular themes back in the days of yore.  More recently, I've seen decks that were a combination of silver/teal and sometimes a third color (either royals or prophets).

In the past, there have been concerns that giving brigades powerful cards of a certain type would lead to "cookie-cutter" themed decks, with a lot of the best choices being obvious.  But brigades need strong cards that coordinate with each other in order to stand alone well.  Brigades also need viable options to mix and match with other brigades, to encourage multi-brigade use as well.  Similarly, you need cards that punish players for using only one brigade, and you need cards that punish players for splashing.  It all seems like it contradicts each other, but in the big picture, you want players to be able to have success in a lot of different ways, and you want players to be able to stop each other in a lot of different ways.

Silver has always been a strong brigade and IMO is still a strong brigade.  Historically it has had excellent characters but Enhancements that were more situational and not always pure battle winners.  I personally thought the Destroyer pack in RoA was a nice boost to silver, and though the recent trend is to increase its value as a support brigade, I don't think there's any reason to worry that silver won't continue to get strong standalone cards in the future.

In short, I think the biggest problem with standalone silver right now is that the other colors are finally catching up to it.

wow! short! sweet! and to the point!

The Schaef

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2010, 10:57:11 AM »
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well, two out of three, anyway.  i think that "short" part was sarcastic  ;)

Offline Bryon

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2010, 11:42:00 AM »
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Bibically, though, aren't angels mainly support (eg giving a message, protecting, aiding) for the person who God is either using or is trying to reach. Basically, do angels bibically share the gospel of Christ and help lead some one to salvation or do they mainly aid the person who God is using (hope that makes sence)?
Exactly what I have been thinking.  And I agree with Schaef's post, too.

Pure silver is OK, but splash in another theme, and it makes it more exciting.  Job (with Angel at Shur), Aaron (with Seraph and Angel of God or The Destroyer), Samson (with Birth Foretold and Consuming Fire), John the Baptist (with Birth Foretold and Seraph), Simeon (with Seraph and Luke Gabriel), Zecharias (with Gabriel and Gabriel meets Zecharias), Israelite Archer (with The Strong Angel), Jacob (with Captain or Angel of God or Guardian Angel or Seraphim), and Daniel humans banded to Daniel angels all make for nice little examples of Angels cooperating with humans to advance the kingdom of God.

Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2010, 12:28:12 PM »
-1
Yeah, those are all fun little combos, but they really aren't enough to make me want to build a deck out of them. I mean I might splash Samson into an angels deck just because of Birth Foretold, but neither of those cards are really even good for anything else (and Consuming Fire is crap), so I'm not planning on making a whole Angel/Jugdes deck out of them.

I have to say that I'm really very disappointed with the new angels. I can't even imagine a successful deck using these cards.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2010, 01:06:38 PM »
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The random increase angel is trash, but the Convenience Store is really good with Jacob.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

The Schaef

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2010, 01:11:14 PM »
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Which card gives a random increase?

Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2010, 01:16:24 PM »
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The random increase angel is trash, but the Convenience Store is really good with Jacob.
Great, more reason to use Jacob. Seriously, we need more humans that band to angels. Then all these angels that protect humans from stuff will actually be useful.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2010, 04:12:57 PM »
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(Random) increase Angel, not (random increase) Angel.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

The Schaef

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2010, 05:45:49 PM »
-1
If it was part of a set developed by a group of people, that seems to indicate a deliberate design and not random.

TheHobbit13

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2010, 06:46:54 PM »
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If it was part of a set developed by a group of people, that seems to indicate a deliberate design and not random.

It doesn't have much to do with the existing themes though. I think that is what he was saying. I like the card idea for fun decks but the card is pretty much useless other wise.

The Schaef

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2010, 07:14:44 PM »
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Silver does not have a theme of supporting human brigades?  Or making humans stronger does not fit the theme of a card named Strengthening Angel?

I'm baffled that people don't assign this card any value in FBNB decks, where the CBP means the ability would work even when it's part of the banding chain.  Not to mention the protection of hand and deck during a time when those powers are getting significant boosts.  This card counters a half dozen or more cards from this set alone, and it's not a full-size expansion.

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2010, 07:37:50 PM »
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Silver does not have a theme of supporting human brigades?  Or making humans stronger does not fit the theme of a card named Strengthening Angel?

I'm baffled that people don't assign this card any value in FBNB decks, where the CBP means the ability would work even when it's part of the banding chain.  Not to mention the protection of hand and deck during a time when those powers are getting significant boosts.  This card counters a half dozen or more cards from this set alone, and it's not a full-size expansion.

... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.

Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2010, 08:40:49 PM »
-1
Yeah, as far as I can tell, Strengthening Angel is just a male Arianna.
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The Schaef

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2010, 09:04:17 PM »
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... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.

Any card that can band to a silver or male Hero?

And yes, the increase is permanent, because there is nothing on the card that says it is NOT permanent.  See also: Jairus' Daughter, Timothy, Bread of Life, Meeting in the Wilderness, The Body of Christ, Chastisement of the Lord, Drawn Water, Jacob's New Name, Elisha's Bones, Listening to God, The Vineyard, Wandering Spirit, Molten Calf Worship.

Offline Smokey

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2010, 09:05:59 PM »
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... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.

Any card that can band to a silver or male Hero?

And yes, the increase is permanent, because there is nothing on the card that says it is NOT permanent.  See also: Jairus' Daughter, Timothy, Bread of Life, Meeting in the Wilderness, The Body of Christ, Chastisement of the Lord, Drawn Water, Jacob's New Name, Elisha's Bones, Listening to God, The Vineyard, Wandering Spirit, Molten Calf Worship.

Does it stack with itself?

Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2010, 09:08:34 PM »
+1
... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.

Any card that can band to a silver or male Hero?
So...2 cards?
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The Schaef

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2010, 09:23:20 PM »
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Does it stack with itself?

Why wouldn't it?  Each activation of its ability resolves instantly.

So...2 cards?

I count at least half a dozen cards that fit into this ability.  Now you can keep being cute and sarcastic about this or you can just process a very simple statement that I said the card ALSO (not only, but ALSO) works if it's banded into a Captain-or-Captain-like-chain, because it cannot be prevented.  It is NOT the ONLY possible use of the card, but it IS an ADDITIONAL use which you seem to be looking for any excuse just to tear it down.  You've made it quite clear that you don't see value in the card, and that's fine; you don't need to pile on by inventing new criticisms that are not even correct.  Another example:

Quote
Protect all cards in holder’s hand and draw pile from being discarded or removed by an evil special ability.

Quote
Protect cards in your hand and deck from discard by opponent (no restriction on the type of discard).  Increase your human Heroes by 1/1 (no such ability on Arianna).  Cannot be prevented (Arianna can be prevented).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 09:26:37 PM by The Schaef »

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2010, 09:31:00 PM »
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Ok, if Strengthening Angel is a permanent increase...

Protect cards in your hand and deck from discard by opponent.  Increase your human Heroes by 1/1.  Cannot be prevented.

Why isn't Plagued with Diseases?

Decrease all opponents' Heroes by 0/2 (or 0/3 if you have the fewst Redeemed Souls).

Both ability changes are written the same way. *Change* *target* by *Number*. If I play Plagued with Diseases as an enhancement, are my opponents heroes all permanently decreased/diseased?

Offline Master KChief

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2010, 09:33:39 PM »
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strengthening angel = poor mans elijahs mantle.
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Offline Smokey

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2010, 09:35:50 PM »
-1
strengthening angel = pro if used with elijahs mantle.
Fixed.

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2010, 09:38:27 PM »
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strengthening angel = pro if used with elijahs mantle.
Fixed.
hurrah for pointless combos!

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: The issue with Silver
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2010, 09:44:17 PM »
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And yes, the increase is permanent, because there is nothing on the card that says it is NOT permanent.  See also: Jairus' Daughter, Timothy, Bread of Life, Meeting in the Wilderness, The Body of Christ, Chastisement of the Lord, Drawn Water, Jacob's New Name, Elisha's Bones, Listening to God, The Vineyard, Wandering Spirit, Molten Calf Worship.

While I agree with all of your examples, this REG quote makes me wonder:

Quote from: Ongoing Special Abilities > Increase or Decrease Ability > Default Conditions
The effect lasts until the end of the battle, unless the card specifies otherwise.

I think the Set-Asides work differently because they are set-asides, and cards like Jairus' Daughter and Army of Simeonites say return to territory with abilities increased/decreased (so the change obviously lasts past the battle phase). So it seems to me that Strengthening Angel is like Gibeonite Trickery (another card that doesn't specify the duration of the gain) and the increase only lasts until the end of battle. How that jives with your other examples, I'm not entirely sure.

Also, FWIW, I'm having trouble thinking of any other Heroes besides Jacob and Claudia that can band to Strengthening Angel without the aid of enhancements. I don't think BB was being sarcastic when he said he could only think of two heroes.
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