Author Topic: REQUEST: What is too hard to stop? What needs more counters? (Read 72720 times)

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #225 on:** January 25, 2010, 12:38:29 AM »

A hand control deck won type 2 nats this past years. So two years in a row a hand control deck has won both 1st place categories...how much do we need to boost it? Maybe focus on deck d/c not hand control too much. Slowly give it cards, 2 good cards here in one set and next year another couple good cards. You don't want to put out 4-6 great deck d/c cards in one set and everyone will be stalling lol.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #226 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:03:38 AM »

I was thinking more the evil discard. Blue offense can d/c really well, but the defenses I've seen don't seem to do such a good job. Galba+Namaans chariots.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #227 on:** January 25, 2010, 09:16:23 AM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on January 25, 2010, 12:38:29 AM

A hand control deck won type 2 nats this past years. So two years in a row a hand control deck has won both 1st place categories...how much do we need to boost it? Maybe focus on deck d/c not hand control too much. Slowly give it cards, 2 good cards here in one set and next year another couple good cards. You don't want to put out 4-6 great deck d/c cards in one set and everyone will be stalling lol.

It really is a pickle when you take T2 into account (as it often is), since they can take any one awesome card and put five of them in a deck, making it more difficult to keep both T1 and T2 balanced.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #228 on:** January 25, 2010, 05:15:53 PM »

But there is also twice as many cards to discard as well as it takes longer to get it going in type 2. Discarding one card from an opponent's deck in type 1 can really hinder them, especially if that one card happens to be a dominant or key offensive card. In type 2 you discard it that one offensive card or dominant, ok yeah it stinks, but I still have much more.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #229 on:** January 25, 2010, 09:16:16 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on January 25, 2010, 05:15:53 PM

But there is also twice as many cards to discard as well as it takes longer to get it going in type 2. Discarding one card from an opponent's deck in type 1 can really hinder them, especially if that one card happens to be a dominant or key offensive card. In type 2 you discard it that one offensive card or dominant, ok yeah it stinks, but I still have much more.

When are you running 2 or more of a single dom?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #230 on:** January 25, 2010, 09:20:03 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 25, 2010, 09:16:16 PM

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on January 25, 2010, 05:15:53 PM
But there is also twice as many cards to discard as well as it takes longer to get it going in type 2. Discarding one card from an opponent's deck in type 1 can really hinder them, especially if that one card happens to be a dominant or key offensive card. In type 2 you discard it that one offensive card or dominant, ok yeah it stinks, but I still have much more.
When are you running 2 or more of a single dom?

when you have an Angel at the Tomb.
kinda.
speaking of which, I was able to d/c my dad's SoG last tournament in T2 with the deck discard soul. pretty epic, although he ended up winning in a time-out 5-4-4.

Bryon · « **Reply #231 on:** January 25, 2010, 10:52:02 PM »

Hand discard is, by nature, more powerful than deck discard. Deck discard hurts you, potentially, in the future. Hand discard often hurts you in the current turn, or at least the current round, more often than not.

In both cases, drawing fast will help you. This is yet another reason to pack a lot of drawing abilities.

Hand discard is fairly strong already. It'll get a little help, most likely, in the next set. But deck discard is not nearly as strong yet. It will likely get the more powerful new cards.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #232 on:** January 26, 2010, 01:52:34 AM »

Don't make it too strong, there is already Water Jar which IMO, is one of the strongest best cards ever made.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #233 on:** January 26, 2010, 07:46:16 AM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on January 26, 2010, 01:52:34 AM

Don't make it too strong, there is already Water Jar which IMO, is one of the strongest best cards ever made.

That isn't truly deck d/c though.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #234 on:** January 26, 2010, 08:47:46 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on January 25, 2010, 10:52:02 PM

Hand discard is, by nature, more powerful than deck discard. Deck discard hurts you, potentially, in the future. Hand discard often hurts you in the current turn, or at least the current round, more often than not.

In both cases, drawing fast will help you. This is yet another reason to pack a lot of drawing abilities.

Hand discard is fairly strong already. It'll get a little help, most likely, in the next set. But deck discard is not nearly as strong yet. It will likely get the more powerful new cards.

SPEED DOESN'T NEED HELP!!! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??!!

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #235 on:** January 26, 2010, 08:49:22 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on January 26, 2010, 08:47:46 AM

Quote from: Bryon on January 25, 2010, 10:52:02 PM
Hand discard is, by nature, more powerful than deck discard. Deck discard hurts you, potentially, in the future. Hand discard often hurts you in the current turn, or at least the current round, more often than not.

In both cases, drawing fast will help you. This is yet another reason to pack a lot of drawing abilities.

Hand discard is fairly strong already. It'll get a little help, most likely, in the next set. But deck discard is not nearly as strong yet. It will likely get the more powerful new cards.
SPEED DOESN'T NEED HELP!!! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??!!

Wha? He didn't say speed was getting a boost. He said hand and especially deck discard would get boosts.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #236 on:** January 26, 2010, 08:53:21 AM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on January 26, 2010, 08:49:22 AM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on January 26, 2010, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Bryon on January 25, 2010, 10:52:02 PM
Hand discard is, by nature, more powerful than deck discard. Deck discard hurts you, potentially, in the future. Hand discard often hurts you in the current turn, or at least the current round, more often than not.

In both cases, drawing fast will help you. This is yet another reason to pack a lot of drawing abilities.

Hand discard is fairly strong already. It'll get a little help, most likely, in the next set. But deck discard is not nearly as strong yet. It will likely get the more powerful new cards.
SPEED DOESN'T NEED HELP!!! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??!!
Wha? He didn't say speed was getting a boost. He said hand and especially deck discard would get boosts.

I misread.

Quote from: Bryon on January 25, 2010, 10:52:02 PM

In both cases, drawing fast will help you. This is yet another reason to pack a lot of drawing abilities.

I thought the "pack a lot of drawing abilities" was in reference to what's going to be in the pack. this is what I get for doing this after I wake up...

Bryon · « **Reply #237 on:** January 26, 2010, 02:04:38 PM »

Right. Speed will get hurt in the next set. There are at least 3 cards that will make players think twice before building a deck involving lots of draw abilities. The problem is, there are so many benefits to speed that it takes a lot to convince a player to WANT to keep some cards in his deck. Hopefully, the new cards will help.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #238 on:** January 26, 2010, 03:01:03 PM »

I don't know if I said this before, or even if I should put this here, but I think that whatever you do, you should make sure that you have some lost souls in the next set. I think lost souls [could] add quite a bit of strategy to the game, but as of now, almost every deck has mostly the same lost souls in them (Female, NT, Shuffler, Exchanger, 2/3-Liner, etc.). I was disappointed that there were no lost souls in the last set, but I hope I see a few in the next. Like the brigade themes, I think we just need to take some time to make more (and hopefully theme-specific) lost souls, so that not everyone's deck looks the same.

I guess that's my ultimate hope for Redemption in general: that someday ten people can all have competitive decks with no more than a few cards repeating.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #239 on:** January 26, 2010, 04:01:47 PM »

Although I like the theme decks I would like to see more overall cards again. It seems like every time now you see black it's the same defense, Philistines, pale green means Assyrians, crimson all Babylonians. It seems like once you see what color they are playing then you know for the most part it is the same theme based defense. I like themes but I want to see a defense and not know what else is in it. So I hope more cards are made which do not need to be used on an Assyrian, or only work if X number of Babylonians are in play.

Master KChief · « **Reply #240 on:** January 26, 2010, 04:04:15 PM »

i totally agree. the themes are getting a bit played out. pretty much everyone uses the exact same stuff for every color. i'd like to see a return to old-skool redemption, where characters were spread out quite a bit.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #241 on:** January 26, 2010, 05:12:27 PM »

Crimson means all Babs? Crimson is the Brigade with The Leviathan, Zimri, Jereboam, Gomer, Red Dragon, and SSoS.

Black can mean Sadducees just as easily as Philistines. It can also mean Abom. Sure, it's a specialized Brigade, but there are 3 specializations.

Pale Green has PotW, Esau the Hunter, Beast from the Sea, the good Panic Demon, and Women as Snares. All Assyrians?

And would you complain about Orange for being all Demons, or Teal for being all Priests, or Silver for being all Angels? Clearly the themes aren't the problem, just the lack of more than 10ish good cards per theme.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #242 on:** January 26, 2010, 05:19:05 PM »

A better comparison would be to look at actual tournament decks to see if someone using PG actually uses Esau or PotW, or whether someone using Crimson actually uses Red Dragon or Leviathan. We can tout the merits of having these cards in decks all we want, but if players aren't doing that, then people using Crimson really are only using Babylonians. I have already voiced my opinion about the themes in other threads, and I have yet to see a blue brigade offense that did not have only Genesis cards. The structure of the recent theme enhancement has left people who want to use the blue brigade penalized if they do not use Genesis heroes only.

Bryon · « **Reply #243 on:** January 26, 2010, 05:58:54 PM »

There is absolutely NO penalty for using blue cards that are not Genesis. You can use Ira, Seeker, and all the pre-2007 heroes that you want and you won't be hurt at all. We've had old school Type 1 players show up with their old pre-2007 tournament-winning decks and had no problem being competitive in today's tournaments. The old decks didn't dominate like they used to, but they were certainly decent.

There are benefits to using the new themes (new cards work better with them), but no penalties for not using them.

Besides, pre-2007 decks seemed to have less diversity than today's decks. If you played against a blue deck, you knew exactly what cards were going to be in it. Nowadays, there remains several questions: will it be pure Genesis? Will he splash Ira? Seeker? Will it be blue-silver banding? Will it be blue battle winners with Thomas? Will it be hand discard? The more cards that are made, the more options there are.

One of the things you notice about EVERY TCG is that dominant strategies (decks that have won top tournaments lately) are often copied and heavily used at tournaments, by players hoping for the same results. When Gabe won in 2007 with splash offense and stand alone D, suddenly a third of the decks at tournaments looked very similar to that. When Tim M won with Genesis/Roman/Menahem hand discard, suddenly 1/3 of the tournament decks used that. A Z's Temple/Garden Tomb deck won this year, so you see a lot of that now.

There are ways to tech against popular decks, and build something fresh around that. Most tournament players don't bother.

As for themes, expect them to continue, character-wise. However, expect at least half the new enhancements to be usable by "non-theme" characters.

Also, expect a couple new themes this year.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #244 on:** January 26, 2010, 06:23:15 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on January 26, 2010, 05:58:54 PM

As for themes, expect them to continue, character-wise. However, expect at least half the new enhancements to be usable by "non-theme" characters.

Also, expect a couple new themes this year.

WOOT! Love it!

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #245 on:** January 26, 2010, 06:33:51 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on January 26, 2010, 05:58:54 PM

There is absolutely NO penalty for using blue cards that are not Genesis. You can use Ira, Seeker, and all the pre-2007 heroes that you want and you won't be hurt at all. We've had old school Type 1 players show up with their old pre-2007 tournament-winning decks and had no problem being competitive in today's tournaments. The old decks didn't dominate like they used to, but they were certainly decent.

I continue to disagree. For new players (without pre-2007 decks), they will go to tournaments and play booster draft. Current BD trends (as marketed) use RoA/FoOF tins. Similarly, new players finding Redemption at the local Christian bookstore will likely buy the tins since the boosters are included. Upon opening the tins, players who happen upon a blue offense will only have Genesis heroes, with cards that say "If used by a Genesis...", "If all your heroes are Genesis...", "Search for a Genesis..."

These players will not be able to use the cool (and powerful) enhancements included in their tin effectively, unless they stick to the Genesis-only cards (penalized).

Quote from: Bryon on January 26, 2010, 05:58:54 PM

However, expect at least half the new enhancements to be usable by "non-theme" characters.

This is what I was hoping to hear, but the "half" is disappointing, unless the set is larger than what we have had lately. Otherwise "half" could only mean "one."

stefferweffer · « **Reply #246 on:** January 26, 2010, 06:49:01 PM »

I know I've not been playing long, but didn't cards like AOC promo and then evil protect fortresses discourage people from using the other cards? In my casual decks I use these other "fun" cards with reckless abandon, but you could make a "fun" pale green defense with no Assyrians, and then one AOC promo and there they all go. Cards like Color-guard LS and others help alleviate this, when you have that combo, but it sure makes a fortress that protects your ECs from discard and even more, AND an EC of that theme who can search for that fortress, start looking really attractrive. So in casual play I agree that the fun cards are very viable, but in tournaments I don't think they will do as well. That's what I ADORED about the Windows of Narrow light promo. Give those players who haven't bought cards in the last 2-3 years a reason to pull out those older cards and come to the tournament.

Bryon · « **Reply #247 on:** January 26, 2010, 07:02:39 PM »

Quote

These players will not be able to use the cool (and powerful) enhancements included in their tin effectively, unless they stick to the Genesis-only cards (penalized).

Where is the penalty?

The reason those new enhancements were made so "cool (and powerful)" is by balancing them with who could use them, or who could use them unnegatably. Complaining that you can't use Numerous as the Stars on Ira is like saying you are penalized for using Pale Green because you can't use Wrath of Satan on Prince of this World. There are cards that work well with some characters. That is part of what makes those characters so useful. There are other characters that are so poweful (Ira, Benaiah, Moses, The Strong Angel, Captain, and just about every character you used to see in decks pre 2007) that they'd STILL be in just about every deck today if they were allowed to use all the current new enhancements. You would have less variety in decks. Worse still, decks would look the same as they did for years from Warriors to 2007. Tim Maly used to talk about the fact that a whole expansion would release and he'd change 1-2 cards in his deck for the year. This happened for years in a row. With themes, players have options.

Those same players who are opening tins and getting Zebulun are also opening Thomas, blue Ehud, Ira, Trapped in Cleverness, etc. If they really want to use Zebulun's awesome ability (major benefit), then they can build a separate Genesis-only deck. If they want to use Ira, blue Ehud, and Thomas (benefit), then they can do that. I could just as easily argue that I am "penalized" for using Genesis-only because I don't get a FBN hero or a NT CNB hero or a blocker-choosing hero. It isn't a penalty, just a choice of benefits.

Saying you can't have your cake (benefit) and eat it too (benefit) is not a penalty. You just have to pick which benefit you prefer.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #248 on:** January 26, 2010, 08:07:55 PM »

Quote

Crimson means all Babs? Crimson is the Brigade with The Leviathan, Zimri, Jereboam, Gomer, Red Dragon, and SSoS.

Leviathan is not used in top decks anymore, Zimri is sometimes, Jereboam?, there is a new themed Gomer and she is not used too muich in crimson decks. I do think Red Dragon is, but SSoS is a theme, in orange for the most part.

Quote

Black can mean Sadducees just as easily as Philistines. It can also mean Abom. Sure, it's a specialized Brigade, but there are 3 specializations.

You are right on this one.

Quote

Pale Green has PotW, Esau the Hunter, Beast from the Sea, the good Panic Demon, and Women as Snares. All Assyrians?

Yes but Prince is splashed, Beast is not used as is Esau not used, the good Panic Demon no longer sees play, and Women is used for TGT.

Quote

And would you complain about Orange for being all Demons, or Teal for being all Priests, or Silver for being all Angels?

Yeah right about that too.

Quote

Clearly the themes aren't the problem, just the lack of more than 10ish good cards per theme.

I think this is what I meant. Thank you.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #249 on:** January 26, 2010, 08:10:17 PM »

Adding on to the above, I don't think the problem is exactly a lack of good cards... but rather there is no reason NOT to use the same few cards.

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Author Topic: REQUEST: What is too hard to stop? What needs more counters? (Read 72720 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

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