Author Topic: REQUEST: What is too hard to stop? What needs more counters? (Read 73098 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #100 on:** January 14, 2010, 05:20:20 PM »

Don't make me bring heroless back. (cuz I can)

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #101 on:** January 14, 2010, 05:29:29 PM »

The three most developed themes are Prophets, Egyptians, and Babylonians. All three of these themes have a certain amount of diversity in how they are played (especially Prophets). The more we develop each theme, the more diverse they get.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #102 on:** January 14, 2010, 07:51:53 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 14, 2010, 05:29:29 PM

The three most developed themes are Prophets, Egyptians, and Babylonians. All three of these themes have a certain amount of diversity in how they are played (especially Prophets). The more we develop each theme, the more diverse they get.

on babylonians. They are so diverse. You can do RC with them or just straight up Babs...either way is fierce

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #103 on:** January 14, 2010, 09:59:16 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 14, 2010, 03:37:24 PM

That way, you could essentially have the "good old days" again, just that the two completely different green offenses are still prophet-based.

The pattern of the newer sets would say otherwise. You would need many more sets to accomplish this goal. TexP, for example, only introduced a couple characters from each brigade. I doubt very highly that we will see two completely different blue Genesis decks. If better green prophets are made, then everyone will use them and not the others. I don't see the "completely different" idea coming to fruition anytime soon.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #104 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:27:08 PM »

Well back in the day only the "best" heroes were used, well people who matter anyways

.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #105 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:36:28 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 14, 2010, 10:27:08 PM

Well back in the day only the "best" heroes were used, well people who matter anyways .

So everyone who used Red brigade (heroes, not the red Red Dragon) used the same heroes?

What I am seeing, especially for newer players, is a tendency to use what the newer sets are requiring.

If all your heroes are Genesis...
If you have another Babylonian...
If used by a prophet....

These enhancements are useless for people who don't follow the theme. However, there are not many new enhancements that don't do this. So players have little choice (if they want to have a chance at a tournament against you guys) except to follow the theme. Once locked into the theme, there are few options that are not obvious. A Genesis deck without Jacob to play first and Zebulun for pre-block ignore? Why?

As experienced out-of-the-box players, you guys will do it just to say you can. But new players need to follow the theme and use the staples. They have no choice, except to lose 5-0. Yay, fun tournament. Don't call me, I'll call you....

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #106 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:46:33 PM »

Yeah, that is true. Though red actually has held its diversity since red has always used some WC heroes. The truth is we need more diverse character abilities, not necessarily BETTER, just more diverse. The themes would be increased if you had a hard choice to include Judge A which does good against X or Judge B which grabs Y or Judge C which rips itself in a half.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #107 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:51:56 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 14, 2010, 10:46:33 PM

The themes would be increased if you had a hard choice to include Judge A which does good against X or Judge B which grabs Y or Judge C which rips itself in a half.

That I can agree with, and I'm sure is what the Professor meant. I still think that we would either need many more sets or a few large sets to accomplish that goal.

Red Brigade WC Hand/Deck discarders
Genesis banding chain
Babylonian Lost Soul annhiliation
etc.

Ironica · « **Reply #108 on:** January 14, 2010, 11:29:20 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 14, 2010, 10:51:56 PM

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 14, 2010, 10:46:33 PM
The themes would be increased if you had a hard choice to include Judge A which does good against X or Judge B which grabs Y or Judge C which rips itself in a half.

That I can agree with, and I'm sure is what the Professor meant. I still think that we would either need many more sets or a few large sets to accomplish that goal.

Red Brigade WC Hand/Deck discarders
Genesis banding chain
Babylonian Lost Soul annhiliation
etc.

They could also give Egyptians some more site-lock card (since they have Building Egypt)

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #109 on:** January 14, 2010, 11:55:38 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 14, 2010, 10:46:33 PM

The truth is we need more diverse character abilities

the truth is... I am Ironman.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #110 on:** January 14, 2010, 11:56:49 PM »

Quote from: Ironica on January 14, 2010, 11:29:20 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 14, 2010, 10:51:56 PM
Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 14, 2010, 10:46:33 PM
The themes would be increased if you had a hard choice to include Judge A which does good against X or Judge B which grabs Y or Judge C which rips itself in a half.

That I can agree with, and I'm sure is what the Professor meant. I still think that we would either need many more sets or a few large sets to accomplish that goal.

Red Brigade WC Hand/Deck discarders
Genesis banding chain
Babylonian Lost Soul annhiliation
etc.

They could also give Egyptians some more site-lock card (since they have Building Egypt)

I'm a bit weary on that, just for biblical reasons. Egyptians didn't keep much of a closed door policy.

Bryon · « **Reply #111 on:** January 15, 2010, 03:08:55 AM »

When we make new power cards, one way to balance them is to only let them work in a theme. If we don't add a thematic element, then everyone splashes the card.

Look at a couple examples:
Zebulun vs. Uzzah

With Zebulun, care was taken to keep this guy in check. His is a fantastic ability, but it ONLY works if you dedicate your offense to the theme. It rewards you for building a pure Genesis heroes offence. If you splash him into an old school blue mashup deck, he still draws a card, and if he's your only hero out at the time, he's still great. Still, you won't see him in every deck, and for good reason.

With Uzzah, I am sorry that he was released as he was. In retrospect, he should have had another requirement. His ability is just too good. Maybe "discard a Tabernacle artifact" or something. As it was, EVERYONE uses artifacts, so a high percentage of decks use Uzzah. If we'd stuck with the Tabernacle artifact requirement, he'd be in a lot fewer decks. If you wanted to use his powerful ability, it should have required a more focused deck.

When we make great enhancements for green and blue, we have to be careful about cards like Benaiah and Ira, and Faithful Servant, and Seeker of the Lost, and the blue Ehud, and Hur, and some others. Those characters were very popular. Most decks had at least one of those characters prior to the shift toward themes. Decks that use those heroes can still be very successful. Nothing has really nerfed their power.

If an enhancement is not super potent, it will likely be useable by anyone. Some good enhancements will give an effect, or better effect if used by x. And some will simply say, "If used by X, do Y." If enhancements are made across a spectrum like this, then decks using old school characters can still use some new enhancements, but the players who use the likes of Agabus and Sarah and Deborah for thematic purposes can be rewarded as well.

Territory class enhancements will likely continue to have restrictions, since they have a great potential for abuse if we are not careful. Not all of those restrictions will be based on theme, though. Some will simply be restricted by duration of effect. I'm looking at a blue TC enhancement on the list that is usable by any human hero except a priest (not much of a restriction). Its main restriction is a three turn limit to its effect. I am a little apprehensive about its use on the old top dogs, but the three turn limit eases my mind a bit.

Bryon · « **Reply #112 on:** January 15, 2010, 03:21:31 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 14, 2010, 10:36:28 PM

So everyone who used Red brigade (heroes, not the red Red Dragon) used the same heroes?

When I started playing? Pretty much. Jael, Rahab, Abigail, Gad, and the rest of those no-SA heroes.

Every set just gave you a few more heroes to replace the ones without special abilities. Gradually, it grew to the point that cards like Rahab got dropped for Jephthah. But Red decks still looked the same. Actually, it was often two-brigade offenses around here, since each brigade didn't have enough good heroes to make a decent showing.

The brigades grow slowly, but options still exist.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #113 on:** January 15, 2010, 03:58:59 AM »

I personally think the recent expansions did a lot to diversify Green Prophets. Right up front you have to decide between pure Green, Green/Teal, or Green/TGT. If you go pure Green, you typically have to decide between Jeremiah abuse, Habbakuk/IaP territory abuse, traditional balanced, or Micah/Two Bears abuse.

Red · « **Reply #114 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:50:28 AM »

i agree that themes are huge i wish they wern't nessary to win.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #115 on:** January 15, 2010, 08:37:24 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 15, 2010, 03:58:59 AM

I personally think the recent expansions did a lot to diversify Green Prophets.

Again, I do not disagree with this assessment. My concern was more within the brigade color itself. There are not many green brigade decks that are not prophets. If a new player learns the game and wants green, they will feel compelled to use prophets since all the green cards from FoOF, RoA and TexP are prophets.

Ironica · « **Reply #116 on:** January 15, 2010, 08:42:12 AM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 14, 2010, 11:56:49 PM

Quote from: Ironica on January 14, 2010, 11:29:20 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 14, 2010, 10:51:56 PM
Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 14, 2010, 10:46:33 PM
The themes would be increased if you had a hard choice to include Judge A which does good against X or Judge B which grabs Y or Judge C which rips itself in a half.

That I can agree with, and I'm sure is what the Professor meant. I still think that we would either need many more sets or a few large sets to accomplish that goal.

Red Brigade WC Hand/Deck discarders
Genesis banding chain
Babylonian Lost Soul annhiliation
etc.

They could also give Egyptians some more site-lock card (since they have Building Egypt)

I'm a bit weary on that, just for biblical reasons. Egyptians didn't keep much of a closed door policy.

Well...they did build the pyramids (which happens to be the symbol for sites

)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #117 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:09:40 AM »

You mean they BUILT (building) Egypt?

redemption101 · « **Reply #118 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:11:45 AM »

type 2 needs a fix

Auto block defenese are just to easy using my pale green defense/splash brown (10 Cards)
I have 15 blocks that my opponate can't stop. The worst part is the 0/4 end battle cards have no downside. On top of that its not a combo, its choose our ec with low enough numbers to get initaitve and you win. Then you add 2k horses out there its game over.

I have not played a good site lock deck withthe current expansion but what i have seen even before priests was if this was played right you're in trouble. People are complaining about this in type one where most decsk are 60-75% offense with only a small defense, Now type 2 there are fulscale defenses so you can't just get by with 3 dr 3 eots.

I was just looking at RTS, Pale green can make 20 blocks that the other person can not do anything about. Please keep in mind FBTN is not a problem with essau.
5 0/4 end battles
5 Dou - this card is atleast 1 block if not 2
5 Possesd - Needs demon
5 Phineas/ELI
IF thats not enough then
Essau Comes out with CNBN captures

So theres a defense that requires 50 cards making 25 blocks and the other persons offesen can't touch it at all. (only thing i see that stops any of this would be blessings cutting down the effective enhacements to 20 blocks)

ACe · « **Reply #119 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:29:23 AM »

I would like to see more converting evil characters to heroes. Maybe a cannot be negated convert ability. Some orange battle winners would be nice also, or orange warrior class characters.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #120 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:55:44 AM »

Quote from: redemption101 on January 15, 2010, 09:11:45 AM

type 2 needs a fix

Auto block defenese are just to easy using my pale green defense/splash brown (10 Cards)
I have 15 blocks that my opponate can't stop. The worst part is the 0/4 end battle cards have no downside. On top of that its not a combo, its choose our ec with low enough numbers to get initaitve and you win. Then you add 2k horses out there its game over.

I have not played a good site lock deck withthe current expansion but what i have seen even before priests was if this was played right you're in trouble. People are complaining about this in type one where most decsk are 60-75% offense with only a small defense, Now type 2 there are fulscale defenses so you can't just get by with 3 dr 3 eots.

I was just looking at RTS, Pale green can make 20 blocks that the other person can not do anything about. Please keep in mind FBTN is not a problem with essau.
5 0/4 end battles
5 Dou - this card is atleast 1 block if not 2
5 Possesd - Needs demon
5 Phineas/ELI
IF thats not enough then
Essau Comes out with CNBN captures

So theres a defense that requires 50 cards making 25 blocks and the other persons offesen can't touch it at all. (only thing i see that stops any of this would be blessings cutting down the effective enhacements to 20 blocks)

Phineas and Hophni can be interrupted. just sayin'

redemption101 · « **Reply #121 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:21:44 AM »

My point is that even in a single birgade you can pretty much shut out an offense for way to long.

My solution to that card problem was to put the new gomer into the deck with the brown battle ender.

what i'm trying to show is these combo take only two cards (three if 2k horses is needed) to pull of effectively and you can shut down any offesne.

STAMP · « **Reply #122 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:45:43 AM »

I realize that as a T2 player, and someone who opposes rule changes, it's ironic that I believe a T2 deck building change may be in order soon. The card base has risen to the point where it's plausible that a max of 3 of any card would be a good change.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #123 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:52:57 AM »

[jk]Moses is WAY to OP'd, we need more cards to stop people with more than 2 identifiers.[/jk]

Bryon · « **Reply #124 on:** January 15, 2010, 01:09:44 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 15, 2010, 03:58:59 AM

I personally think the recent expansions did a lot to diversify Green Prophets. Right up front you have to decide between pure Green, Green/Teal, or Green/TGT. If you go pure Green, you typically have to decide between Jeremiah abuse, Habbakuk/IaP territory abuse, traditional balanced, or Micah/Two Bears abuse.

And in the next set, one of those subthemes gets more help, and a whole new green prophets subtheme debuts.

As Green gets bigger and expands, more prophets varieties will exist, while at the same time, you can still use Benaiah, Hur, Paladin, Faithful Servant, and the other old school greenies for good effect.

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Author Topic: REQUEST: What is too hard to stop? What needs more counters? (Read 73098 times)

Ironica

Warrior_Monk

Ironica

Warrior_Monk