Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If you built your deck right. and if they dont draw auto or www or any of the other search stuff. there is just so much stuff that is annoying about them. they are easy to defend against, but some of the stuff is just insane.

They draw and search very well, but don't have much depth to them.  They are easy to defend against, you just have to use an actual defense and not just a few auto-blocks and drawing characters like in most decks these days

The Deck is easy to defend against, however, FBTNB (including Sam) are not. The issue at Nats was that the meta at top tables changed virtually overnight. Only a handful of players had really intended to play the Deck when they first arrived at Nats, but they convinced several people, including myself, to switch. The Deck was built around completely shutting down the meta defense (Uzzah, Gomer, etc), and whether it was Greeson or Underwood playing defenses nobody really prepared for, or the Pale Green/Grey defense that not many people were expected to play, the simple fact of the matter is that that defense simply didn't exist at top tables. I hold that this is one of the reasons that Martin (who had the hardest schedule, aside from maybe myself) was able to win (aside from a generally solid deck and brilliant gameplay of course) - his deck wasn't tailored to the meta, whereas the Deck was. The assumption going into Nats was that Sam decks would dominate, but that's only partially true; spread offense ruled Nats.

The playtest list I got a look at a couple months ago was disconcerting to me. I don't know how it has changed in the last couple months, but at the time, there was some stuff that looked like it would serve to move players like myself who abandoned Sam (but not speed-based spread offenses) entirely to switch back, while in the meantime, adding a couple cards that would be nasty to speed players, but only if they were drawn first. Again, I don't know how it has changed since the list I have was developed, but the impression I got was that spread offenses would gain more to help them than hurt them. This is, obviously, the opposite of what most people want.

I've grown to appreciate the strategy behind cards like Household Idols, Covenant with Death, and Nazareth, especially when I play people (like Westy) who have been heavily experimenting with defense heavy. These aren't cards that can be thrown into any deck the way RBD can, because they have a lot of impact on how a person plays, and they only fit into certain decks. Barring a rule change to help discourage speed (which I still favor), more cards like these are the best option we have, in my opinion. If the Elders decide to attempt to move the meta away from spread offenses (which I'm not really opposed to) add more cards like the Punisher LS, which does exactly what the title implies - punishes spread offenses. It would be great to see a theme with a Territory Class version of Broken Cisterns, for instance.

Just saying, The decks that finished above me were not true Sam Gabe, They were The Deck/FBTNB for the most part. I finished better than all traditional Samuel offenses.

But not to meta defenses.

Wow, I didn't realize like 3 people changing defenses meant this game has a sudden meta shift. It wouldn't surprise me, though.

Wow, I didn't realize like 3 people changing defenses meant this game has a sudden meta shift. It wouldn't surprise me, though.

I never implied that there was a sudden meta shift in defenses. All I pointed out was that, at least comparatively, almost nobody plays the traditional meta defense anymore, and my understanding from talking to multiple people who played T12P at Nats, as well as comments from the deck checkers, is that most people who keep up with the meta did not play a traditional meta defense.

I've grown to appreciate the strategy behind cards like Household Idols, Covenant with Death, and Nazareth. These aren't cards that can be thrown into any deck the way RBD can, because they have a lot of impact on how a person plays, and they only fit into certain decks.

Covenant With Death can be thrown into almost any deck.  It gives the ability "Negate evil characters" to every single hero.  Herods, which are the only legitimate defense to stop The Deck and all its negating heroes, get run over by CWD.  Attacking with CBN bands with CWD up makes them that much better.  I use CWD in my TGT deck so that I can flip it up when I am attacking with MMoJ and Susanna.

I use Babs, which has a few ways to get rid of any artifact out, face up or down. you have desecrate the temple, Bab soldiers,  Imperial guard. you use the characters pre CWD and DtT hen it is up when you have initiative. it works comparitively well.

I just have desecrate. but there is also the dominant that is avaliable. so you have to ECs to kill artifacts, and a dominanant. and one EC and one enhancement  are not just artifacts so that they are more vfersatile. bab soldiers draws too, and removes a captured character from the game. Desecrate the temple can also kill a temple, good dom, or artifact in territory or opponent's deck. so including these can take out that pesky artifact, and half can do other things. very useful in my opionion.

If it is just starter decks, then it most likely wont make as big of a difference as new tins did. If they do it how they did the others, it is not possible for a new brigade color, and even if there was, it would be weak so that it is able to be a stater deck level thing. also, most of the cards most likely will not be strong enough to entirely shift the meta. there might be a small change, but I'mk sure it won't be huge. Unless, if it is in a starter deck, it is not as good, but in a real deck, the carss are great. but there arent really any cards like that in any of the other sater decks exept for the Doms. Just my opionion on that.

Old school Sam deck had a crazy amount of firepower. But that was before dominant cap. I'm not even sure what a typical "Sam" deck looks like anymore. Red/Purple? Teal/Green/Gold*? The Deck w/ Samuel**? W/C FBTNB w/ Samuel? It has so many options to go with it, but for the most part, I have not seen a Samuel deck for a long time. So as far as the original topic goes, it's hard to say because Sam isn't used.

*The Sam variant I and a couple others played was vastly different from The Deck

**Did people even use Samuel in The Deck at nats? Everybody who did regretted it, I know, but still.

As far as Meta defense goes, MKC is right, it's Plot/Uzzah/Balaam's/DoU with draw characters and potentially a Charms, Magician's Snakes, Failed Objective, or Invoking Terror. Soul Gen characters are in there too, but they aren't defense, so whatever. At least, that's what I've seen playing RTS, (which is generally against the same 3 people, but since those 3 were top 10 at Nats, I think their opinion is pretty worthwhile). But that's not what was anticipated (which was Gomer/KoT and stuffz) at Nats, which is what we were originally talking about. Yet while it really hasn't changed much, it's enough that I would start tech against CBP and DoU in any version I build of The Deck now.

And yeah, I would love some more anti-meta cards, as the last two years at Nats I've played some anti-meta deck (yet both vastly different), and the deck I'm currently playing is definitely anti-meta, and probably will be the one I play at Nats this year. I honestly quite skeptical the starters will change the meta, but I don't have a list or anything, so hard to say. Plus I don't even think the starters should be released until next year. I think The Deck is here to stay, though there will be considerable experimentation with it to change it enough from last year to make a difference (but probably as much difference as the meta has changed).