Author Topic: What enables AUTO abuse? (Read 34297 times)

jbeers285 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 16, 2015, 04:21:33 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 03:56:39 PM

Why are we considering AuTo a problem? Of all of the cards we are claiming to be broken why AuTo? A ban would be a horrendous idea that would cause a terrible slippery slope. If you ban AuTo you need to ban Isaiah/Joseph/Thad/TGT. Then we have some progress.

None of the other 3 cards listed have had nearly the same play rate as auto the last 3 years. Isaiah and Joseph are fine. Although I believe Thad and TGT are two of the worst cards in the game and I'm all for a TGT ban they havnt been in 50%+ decks for the last 3 years and id wager that at top levels you see 4-5 AUTO's to 1 TGT.

Red · « **Reply #26 on:** April 16, 2015, 04:26:21 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 16, 2015, 04:21:33 PM

Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 03:56:39 PM
Why are we considering AuTo a problem? Of all of the cards we are claiming to be broken why AuTo? A ban would be a horrendous idea that would cause a terrible slippery slope. If you ban AuTo you need to ban Isaiah/Joseph/Thad/TGT. Then we have some progress.

None of the other 3 cards listed have had nearly the same play rate as auto the last 3 years. Isaiah and Joseph are fine. Although I believe Thad and TGT are two of the worst cards in the game and I'm all for a TGT ban they havnt been in 50%+ decks for the last 3 years and id wager that at top levels you see 4-5 AUTO's to 1 TGT.

You don't understand. If you ban Auto one of those cards would take his place in an instant. Also, AUTO does not cause a NPE so why ban it? No matter how many decks play it you can still play good games with AUTO decks. We should focus on playing good games. Also, greeks have a super strong match up with Judges. AUTO isn't a problem.

kariusvega · « **Reply #27 on:** April 16, 2015, 04:28:16 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 03:56:39 PM

Why are we considering AuTo a problem? Of all of the cards we are claiming to be broken why AuTo? A ban would be a horrendous idea that would cause a terrible slippery slope. If you ban AuTo you need to ban Isaiah/Joseph/Thad/TGT. Then we have some progress.

Exactly why ban any cards?? There are so many that are already effective. The whole point of the game is to rescue lost souls! Is it not effective to do so? That is the fun of the game. If you want someone to slump over then play magic. You draw 1 per turn. That is the whole appeal of this game to magic players, you start by drawing 3.

Here is the difference between this game and every other game this game is considered an alternative to(which this game is completely it's own): In this game you offer life in a land of redemption. In the other games, you kill your opponent. Enough said. Haha

Drrek · « **Reply #28 on:** April 16, 2015, 04:34:46 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 16, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

Quote
Redemption is very much a game where getting unlucky in a card discarded from the top of deck can ruin you, and having this random discard built into drawing is awful.
No one is forcing you to use cards with a multiple-card draw special ability. If losing a card at random concerns you, simply do not put AUtO or Matthew or... into your deck. Viola' not a problem for you.

If you want to ban cards, ban cards. Don't institute a horrid rule that in effect bans them, and ruins perfectly fine cards.

kariusvega · « **Reply #29 on:** April 16, 2015, 04:53:45 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 04:26:21 PM

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 16, 2015, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 03:56:39 PM
Why are we considering AuTo a problem? Of all of the cards we are claiming to be broken why AuTo? A ban would be a horrendous idea that would cause a terrible slippery slope. If you ban AuTo you need to ban Isaiah/Joseph/Thad/TGT. Then we have some progress.

None of the other 3 cards listed have had nearly the same play rate as auto the last 3 years. Isaiah and Joseph are fine. Although I believe Thad and TGT are two of the worst cards in the game and I'm all for a TGT ban they havnt been in 50%+ decks for the last 3 years and id wager that at top levels you see 4-5 AUTO's to 1 TGT.
You don't understand. If you ban Auto one of those cards would take his place in an instant. Also, AUTO does not cause a NPE so why ban it? No matter how many decks play it you can still play good games with AUTO decks. We should focus on playing good games. Also, greeks have a super strong match up with Judges. AUTO isn't a problem.

Yeah why not just implement more cards like auto to different brigades let people do what they want to do? Black is slow. Red is slow. There are more slow brigades than fast. That is all this thread is really highlighting is that more people want to go faster. Who wants to watch a drag race with slow cars? Draw more cards. People like drawing cards. Why not add more draw cards all around to give everyone more speed to win faster and play more games. Gabe even said his pod cast the tournaments last a long time, lock out decks are a drain. I mean come on how much more contradictory can we get here?

Bottom line, speed is fun. Roller coasters are fun. Drawing is fun. Faster games = more fun games for a younger audience which is going to encourage more people to play the game.

The only thing that could make this game better than more drawing cards is an online scripted environment where kids can play the cards (Hearthstone has this and so does a ton of other .99 mobile apps) instead of searching the boards for rulings. This game is simple enough to be fun, but you have to let it be and you have to make it so that all of the lost souls in real life can see

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 16, 2015, 05:37:09 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 16, 2015, 04:34:46 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 16, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

Quote
Redemption is very much a game where getting unlucky in a card discarded from the top of deck can ruin you, and having this random discard built into drawing is awful.
No one is forcing you to use cards with a multiple-card draw special ability. If losing a card at random concerns you, simply do not put AUtO or Matthew or... into your deck. Viola' not a problem for you.

If you want to ban cards, ban cards. Don't institute a horrid rule that in effect bans them, and ruins perfectly fine cards.

I don't want to ban cards; I want to nerf speed. The problem isn't with individual cards. The issue lies with the warping effect of card draw on the game.

Drrek · « **Reply #31 on:** April 16, 2015, 05:49:11 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 16, 2015, 05:37:09 PM

Quote from: Drrek on April 16, 2015, 04:34:46 PM
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 16, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

Quote
Redemption is very much a game where getting unlucky in a card discarded from the top of deck can ruin you, and having this random discard built into drawing is awful.
No one is forcing you to use cards with a multiple-card draw special ability. If losing a card at random concerns you, simply do not put AUtO or Matthew or... into your deck. Viola' not a problem for you.

If you want to ban cards, ban cards. Don't institute a horrid rule that in effect bans them, and ruins perfectly fine cards.
I don't want to ban cards; I want to nerf speed. The problem isn't with individual cards. The issue lies with the warping effect of card draw on the game.

First of all, why does speed need to be nerfed so badly? Most people play balanced decks, and major tournaments still have every round go to timeouts.

Second of all, you aren't just trying to nerf speed, you are trying to make an very unfun, and very randomly punishing rule for no real reason.

The rule as you have proposed is unnecessary, unfun, and would be a major reason to quit the game if it was ever implemented. Thank goodness it never will.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #32 on:** April 16, 2015, 05:55:58 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on April 16, 2015, 04:53:45 PM

Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 04:26:21 PM
Quote from: jbeers285 on April 16, 2015, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 03:56:39 PM
Why are we considering AuTo a problem? Of all of the cards we are claiming to be broken why AuTo? A ban would be a horrendous idea that would cause a terrible slippery slope. If you ban AuTo you need to ban Isaiah/Joseph/Thad/TGT. Then we have some progress.

None of the other 3 cards listed have had nearly the same play rate as auto the last 3 years. Isaiah and Joseph are fine. Although I believe Thad and TGT are two of the worst cards in the game and I'm all for a TGT ban they havnt been in 50%+ decks for the last 3 years and id wager that at top levels you see 4-5 AUTO's to 1 TGT.
You don't understand. If you ban Auto one of those cards would take his place in an instant. Also, AUTO does not cause a NPE so why ban it? No matter how many decks play it you can still play good games with AUTO decks. We should focus on playing good games. Also, greeks have a super strong match up with Judges. AUTO isn't a problem.

Yeah why not just implement more cards like auto to different brigades let people do what they want to do? Black is slow. Red is slow. There are more slow brigades than fast. That is all this thread is really highlighting is that more people want to go faster. Who wants to watch a drag race with slow cars? Draw more cards. People like drawing cards. Why not add more draw cards all around to give everyone more speed to win faster and play more games. Gabe even said his pod cast the tournaments last a long time, lock out decks are a drain. I mean come on how much more contradictory can we get here?

Bottom line, speed is fun. Roller coasters are fun. Drawing is fun. Faster games = more fun games for a younger audience which is going to encourage more people to play the game.

The only thing that could make this game better than more drawing cards is an online scripted environment where kids can play the cards (Hearthstone has this and so does a ton of other .99 mobile apps) instead of searching the boards for rulings. This game is simple enough to be fun, but you have to let it be and you have to make it so that all of the lost souls in real life can see

There is definitely some truth to this, decks need to be able to keep up with the meta to be be fun. But the game would be pretty boring if every theme did the same thing, it may solve the "almost every deck uses AUTO" problem, but replace it the just as bad "every theme is identical" problem.

Secondly "Speed" is most definitely not fun for everyone. In fact, I would probably find the game very boring if everyone played speed or if every game was short. I play for the long games where my choices and strategies determine whether or not I can crack my opponents defence before he cracks mine (can you tell I play T2?) But on the other side I'm creative and like to design and build decks I can call my own, rather than play X theme or Y deck because they have the best cards.

Quote from: kariusvega on April 16, 2015, 04:53:45 PM

Bottom line, speed is fun. Roller coasters are fun. Drawing is fun. Faster games = more fun games for a younger audience which is going to encourage more people to play the game.

I am really not sure what you mean by this. What do you want Redemption to look like? Because when I read this, it sounds like you want to take everything I love out of Redemption to make it more appealing to people who will play it a couple of times before getting bored and moving on. I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 16, 2015, 06:09:22 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 16, 2015, 05:49:11 PM

The rule as you have proposed is unnecessary, unfun, and would be a major reason to quit the game if it was ever implemented. Thank goodness it never will.

For this you would quit the game?

As I said before, all you would need to do is choose to *not* include any cards with a multi-card draw ability and you would be completely unaffected by the rule change. Are you really saying that you cannot conceive of how Redemption could be fun without including draw cards in your deck?

jbeers285 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 16, 2015, 06:12:56 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 16, 2015, 06:09:22 PM

Quote from: Drrek on April 16, 2015, 05:49:11 PM
The rule as you have proposed is unnecessary, unfun, and would be a major reason to quit the game if it was ever implemented. Thank goodness it never will.
For this you would quit the game?

As I said before, all you would need to do is choose to *not* include any cards with a multi-card draw ability and you would be completely unaffected by the rule change. Are you really saying that you cannot conceive of how Redemption could be fun without including draw cards in your deck?

For me the answer is yes. Games that go 45-50 min are not as much fun. When I play with Jerome we have balanced decks and we play very fast. We still get to 25-30 minutes a lot of the time. Playing slow or new players in this balance meta is not fun and almost always goes long or to timeout. If a game rule made drawing abilities unplayable then the game would be unplayable. Whoever lucks into SoG NJ wins the time out. Over and over and over and over.

kariusvega · « **Reply #35 on:** April 16, 2015, 06:27:02 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 16, 2015, 06:12:56 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 16, 2015, 06:09:22 PM
Quote from: Drrek on April 16, 2015, 05:49:11 PM
The rule as you have proposed is unnecessary, unfun, and would be a major reason to quit the game if it was ever implemented. Thank goodness it never will.
For this you would quit the game?

As I said before, all you would need to do is choose to *not* include any cards with a multi-card draw ability and you would be completely unaffected by the rule change. Are you really saying that you cannot conceive of how Redemption could be fun without including draw cards in your deck?

For me the answer is yes. Games that go 45-50 min are not as much fun. When I play with Jerome we have balanced decks and we play very fast. We still get to 25-30 minutes a lot of the time. Playing slow or new players in this balance meta is not fun and almost always goes long or to timeout. If a game rule made drawing abilities unplayable then the game would be unplayable. Whoever lucks into SoG NJ wins the time out. Over and over and over and over.

Exactly. Doesn't the box of I/J starter decks say ages 7 and up? Don't kids want to have fun? I do. Do you know how long the average child's attention span is these days? I have kids. I'm trying to teach children in my neighborhood and there has to be fun ways to see how it can be entertaining itself

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #36 on:** April 16, 2015, 06:27:55 PM »

Totally with Josiah and Blake on this one

Red · « **Reply #37 on:** April 16, 2015, 06:31:46 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 16, 2015, 06:27:55 PM

Totally with Josiah and Blake on this one

Jay's in too.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 16, 2015, 07:17:31 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 06:31:46 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 16, 2015, 06:27:55 PM
Totally with Josiah and Blake on this one
Jay's in too.

Which is why I support counters instead of banning or "punishments." Counters may not stop AutO completely or even at all, but there are ways out there. Use Golden Cherubim, get foreign wives problem solved. We don't want to punish speed we want to put enough defense out there that players have equal opportunities to win the game. I love diversity in redemption let's make all decks equally viable or at least more so.

Redoubter · « **Reply #39 on:** April 16, 2015, 07:18:37 PM »

Agree that there should be no game rule that alters the way draw works or explicitly 'punishes' it.

The hand limit was put in place to deal with game-breaking combos, but drawing by itself is not game-breaking. We have counters, people don't use them. More counters will be printed, people probably still won't use those. You have to speed to get to the counter anyway, but regardless we will always reach a balance where speed is still used more. And if we did something specifically to AUtO, something else will just take its place in the eyes of those who hate speed (Angelic Guidance, anyone?).

If we want to decide what the worst thing is for the game, I'll say pre-block ignore every time. Not being able to participate in the battle phase is one of the worst things possible because it reduces interaction, encourages bland and unoriginal decks, and is decidedly unfun. If anything needs to change it is that.

Speed is an issue in every game (reaching a balance of speed to counters). But it isn't something that is warranting such drastic measures.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #40 on:** April 16, 2015, 07:44:19 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2015, 07:18:37 PM

If we want to decide what the worst thing is for the game, I'll say pre-block ignore every time. Not being able to participate in the battle phase is one of the worst things possible because it reduces interaction, encourages bland and unoriginal decks, and is decidedly unfun. If anything needs to change it is that.

Urim and Thummim is easily one of the most anti-skill cards in the game, if not the most.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 16, 2015, 08:56:38 PM »

That and Que yes especially when you tower him.

I'm sorry did you want to play freedom?

jesse · « **Reply #42 on:** April 16, 2015, 09:39:32 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2015, 07:18:37 PM

If we want to decide what the worst thing is for the game, I'll say pre-block ignore every time. Not being able to participate in the battle phase is one of the worst things possible because it reduces interaction, encourages bland and unoriginal decks, and is decidedly unfun. If anything needs to change it is that.

totally

MitchRobStew · « **Reply #43 on:** April 16, 2015, 09:56:44 PM »

Quote from: Westy on April 16, 2015, 07:44:19 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2015, 07:18:37 PM
If we want to decide what the worst thing is for the game, I'll say pre-block ignore every time. Not being able to participate in the battle phase is one of the worst things possible because it reduces interaction, encourages bland and unoriginal decks, and is decidedly unfun. If anything needs to change it is that.
Urim and Thummim is easily one of the most anti-skill cards in the game, if not the most.

Agreed look at hand abilities are easily the worst thing in Redemption. Knowing the result of every possible rescue attempt you can make before entering battle (sure you can always assume some things w/o look at hand abilities but its never 100%). Cards like Sorrow of Mary, Tibbers, and Angelic Guidance that have look at hand abilities in addition to other abilities are too much. Though I don't see a problem with AUTOwon Kenobi. He is my only hope.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:02:37 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 16, 2015, 06:31:46 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 16, 2015, 06:27:55 PM
Totally with Josiah and Blake on this one [about draw cards being the bee's knees--mjb]
Jay's in too.

Just make sure what all y'all are voting for here...

Draw cards use to make up less than 2% of all cards with SA prior to Priests. This has climbed to about 10% of every set from FoOF on. Judging from what is written above, it appears that the designers are giving the existing player base what they want. It would be difficult to argue, however, that preferentially creating draw cards has lead to a healthier state of the game.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #45 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:10:18 PM »

Totally disagree with that too.

There is more variety in viable decks now, than at any other time in the games history. We play more balanced decks now than at any point in the games history, if that's not healthy I don't know what is

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:16:25 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 16, 2015, 10:10:18 PM

There is more variety in viable decks now, than at any other time in the games history. We play more balanced decks now than at any point in the games history, if that's not healthy I don't know what is

Since this set? Because top 3 t1 last year was the same light defense. If its since this set there's just not enough tournament evidence to prove your point.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #47 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:17:26 PM »

I had 19 cards of offense, 17 defense, not really sure why you think I was playing defense light

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »

I guess numbers wise your right but I would never really call a pharisee defense balance because of all the support it give to your offense, which is the point of playing it. Also my defense was smaller and I believe Zach's was too.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #49 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:31:11 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 16, 2015, 10:10:18 PM

Totally disagree with that too.

Totally disagree with what? The numbers are what the numbers are.

Quote

There is more variety in viable decks now, than at any other time in the games history. We play more balanced decks now than at any point in the games history, if that's not healthy I don't know what is

Just to be clear, I was responding specifically to the claim that more draw == more fun == more players. Do you think having 60 players playing the premier game (T1-2P) at the premier tournament (Nationals) is a sign that the game is thriving?

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Author Topic: What enables AUTO abuse? (Read 34297 times)

kariusvega

kariusvega

kariusvega

Warrior_Monk

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13