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That's fine...I was just thinking out loud I suppose. I understand the reasoning for not issuing an errata.

Auto doesn't actually warp the meta any longer either.

The over abundance of AUTO at the top levels for the past 3 years says otherwise.

Really confused now, as the quote that you added to was my first post in this thread,

Sorry--I thought you were referring to the exchange immediately prior (the one you were responding to which was indeed snarky).

I apologize for not recognizing that the phrase "bee's knees" was snarky. That was not my intent. I was trying to provide context, and I wanted something pithier than just noting you, Josiah, and Blake  were agreeing that anything weakening draw abilities was worth abandoning the game over.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 17, 2015, 10:06:10 AM

Really confused now, as the quote that you added to was my first post in this thread,

Sorry--I thought you were referring to the exchange immediately prior (the one you were responding to which was indeed snarky).

I apologize for not recognizing that the phrase "bee's knees" was snarky. That was not my intent. I was trying to provide context, and I wanted something pithier than just noting you, Josiah, and Blake  were agreeing that anything weakening draw abilities was worth abandoning the game over.

That's not at all what I said.  I said that your proposed rule change would make me leave the game, and it absolutely would, not that any weakening of draw abilities would make me leave.  If I was gonna leave because draw abilities became weaker, I would have left when the tin with Foreign Wives and Gold Cherubim was printed.

I apologize for not recognizing that the phrase "bee's knees" was snarky. That was not my intent. I was trying to provide context, and I wanted something pithier than just noting you, Josiah, and Blake  were agreeing that anything weakening draw abilities was worth abandoning the game over.

Having others put words into your mouth or post as it is, is something I've seen you be very against in other threads. Please don't do it here.  That said I'd like to point out that RDT, Blake, myself and others responded strong against your idea of of totally neutering draw abilities from the game.  No one, to my knowledge said we would abandon the game if some draw abilities were weakened.  These are totally different concepts. 

The title of this thread would lead me to believe that AUTO is some sort of harmful drug...

I continue to ask, what is the actual problem here?

I'm pretty sure every year we have the best hero brackets AUTO wins, is that healthy for the game? The fact that Foreign Wives exists is a testament to how dominant AUTO is. If they somehow made him work only if all your human heroes were judges, then I could see him being more balanced without being nerfed completely. 

Quote from: Drrek on April 16, 2015, 05:49:11 PM

The rule as you have proposed is unnecessary, unfun, and would be a major reason to quit the game if it was ever implemented.  Thank goodness it never will.

For this you would quit the game?

As I said before, all you would need to do is choose to *not* include any cards with a multi-card draw ability and you would be completely unaffected by the rule change. Are you really saying that you cannot conceive of how Redemption could be fun without including draw cards in your deck?

My answer of Yes was to this post. When you asked if quitting the game was a possibility if the DC1 for any d2(+) ability would be implemented.

For me the answer is yes. Games that go 45-50 min are not as much fun. When I play with Jerome we have balanced decks and we play very fast. We still get to 25-30 minutes a lot of the time. Playing slow or new players in this balance meta is not fun and almost always goes long or to timeout. If a game rule made drawing abilities unplayable then the game would be unplayable. Whoever lucks into SoG NJ wins the time out. Over and over and over and over.

I would rather play an "unplayable" game then a game that's not fun.

I'm really not sure what this even means.  But the fact is also that a game cannot thrive unless it is both able to be played and fun at the same time.

I would rather play an "unplayable" game then a game that's not fun. Drawing is just ridiculous in a game when you draw three every turn. Even in Magic and Lotr base drawing is much less and still they don't have an over abundance of draw cards. And Redemption's attempts to stop it have been laughable at best. Hand limit was a joke, should of made a drawing cap per game.

...but we also have a game where your win condition is based on your opponent drawing.  No other game you are mentioning has any sort of mechanic like that.  If I don't draw, you don't get to rescue souls, it's that simple.  We have the draw 3 because of that and the card types we have, and we have more draw abilities in a game that frankly needs a decent amount of draw.  The issue is when you can design decks that will draw their whole deck in two turns, not having a lot of draw abilities.  And for that problem we have printed a lot of counters.

Comparing this game and the amount of cards drawn to any other game and expecting a reasonable comparison is not logical in the least.  And if we completely neuter drawing to the point that it would be unplayable, I will guarantee that while you may want to play, this game will die, without question.  We have enough doomsayers about this game as it is, but that would absolutely kill it.

I am just curious when did you start playing?

Competitively?  2011, that's when I actually started to go to tournaments.  Before that, I was playing games with my brother up through the Angel Wars expansion, though without any sort of tournament scene and not very 'well'.

Here is your solution...When either player decks out the game is over regardless what the score is.

Yeah its a great idea and has been proposed before but I would change it to When either player attempts to draw but physically cannot due to deck count= 0. Just seems more consistent to other games to me and that way if you deck on your turn you still have one attack to win the game.

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 17, 2015, 06:33:07 PM

I am just curious when did you start playing?

Competitively?  2011, that's when I actually started to go to tournaments.  Before that, I was playing games with my brother up through the Angel Wars expansion, though without any sort of tournament scene and not very 'well'.

Which explains your viewpoint a bit because its fair to say you entered the game when drawing was prevalent. Honestly if drawing is such an integral part of the game then how did it survive before mass drawing?

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 17, 2015, 02:07:43 AM

[1]TexP consisted of sixty cards total and contained one fewer draw card than all the pre-Priests sets combined.

TEXP contains 8 cards with draw abilities. Of those draw abilities one is a d1. The sets before priests counting all cards with "Draw" abilities
total to 29 cards.  Please check your facts.

My bad--I accidentally forgot to add the 14 draw cards from Kings into my tally.  Putting aside cards like Hur, ANB and Love at First Sight--which draw cards as part of their SA, but are not draw cards--I count 23 cards in sets (not starter decks) with draw SAs prior to Priests. (Subtract off the 14 missing Kings, and you get my original count of 9.  <== This just to show where I got my numbers from.)

Consider my facts checked.

Not trying to be rude or anything I just want the facts to be correct.

Understandable.

Three cards per turn is not ridiculous in Redemption, it is necessary for the game not to be incredibly slow (try blocking with only drawing an evil card only every 2 or 3 turns (with a balanced deck), however the draw (and search) abilities may have gotten too ridiculous.