Author Topic: Plot useless? (Read 7148 times)

SomeKittens · « **on:** December 21, 2011, 12:42:14 PM »

So I've been watching ROOT (hey, I don't follow sports) and I've noticed that there are very few HP's used, and those who use them aren't at the top. Is HP really that great of a card anymore? I've experimented with it, but rarely use it in casual games so it's fair.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #1 on:** December 26, 2011, 01:29:08 PM »

Well, keep in mind that first off, not every single Haman's Plot gets recorded in ROOT. Quite simply, sometimes people forget, especially those of us that play on RTS a lot, and forget the significance of it (I actually, in a real life tournament in Maryland, played Haman's Plot completely forgetting that I'd have to tear it). I know that for me, personally, I forgot to make a note of it at least once in this last month. Now admittedly, other people are more responsible than I, but I imagine that a few Plots do fall through the cracks over time. The fact of the matter is it's still the best evil card in the game, or at the very least the best evil enhancement. It has use with three very strong evil characters (Uzzah, Gomer, and A Slave) that are found in most decks.

CJSports · « **Reply #2 on:** December 26, 2011, 05:15:59 PM »

Couldn't have put it better myself, 10 points to Gryffindor.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #3 on:** December 26, 2011, 07:27:24 PM »

It is also worth noting that not everyone has to rip their Plot anymore, thanks to Haman's Gallows.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #4 on:** December 26, 2011, 07:54:59 PM »

Though to be fair, nobody really uses Gallows right now. I haven't run into one all season, and while it makes sense that people wouldn't have a Gallows on RTS, serious players simply won't be using it.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #5 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:01:42 PM »

The one time I ever ran Plot, I didn't have Gallows. It is nice for newer/poorer players.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:26:36 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 07:54:59 PM

Though to be fair, nobody really uses Gallows right now. I haven't run into one all season, and while it makes sense that people wouldn't have a Gallows on RTS, serious players simply won't be using it.

Why is it exactly that you get to decide what "serious" players are using?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #7 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:29:15 PM »

He's a regular at the top of ROOT, so he sees quite a few of the top decks in the national meta.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #8 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:29:58 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 08:26:36 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 07:54:59 PM
Though to be fair, nobody really uses Gallows right now. I haven't run into one all season, and while it makes sense that people wouldn't have a Gallows on RTS, serious players simply won't be using it.

Why is it exactly that you get to decide what "serious" players are using?

You know the answer to this just as much as anyone else who responds to this. Do you actually want someone to respond to this and start an argument?

lp670sv · « **Reply #9 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:33:20 PM »

This'll be good.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #10 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:39:11 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 08:26:36 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 07:54:59 PM
Though to be fair, nobody really uses Gallows right now. I haven't run into one all season, and while it makes sense that people wouldn't have a Gallows on RTS, serious players simply won't be using it.

Why is it exactly that you get to decide what "serious" players are using?

Okay, allow me to use a different word: top players simply won't be using it, for the same reason that top players won't be using the 0/2 Buckler, or how top players won't be using a pure silver offense.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:42:31 PM »

I could see people using it in a persian type 1 defense and I would use it in type 2 to avoid building identical decks. BTW r u saying T2 playerz r n0t seriouz? Were seriouz,seriouz bidness man.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:43:58 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 08:39:11 PM

Okay, allow me to use a different word: top players simply won't be using it, for the same reason that top players won't be using the 0/2 Buckler, or how top players won't be using a pure silver offense.

Top players in which state? Or are we just talking those players that attend Nats? Or is this only about ROOT? All of those categories have completely different populations.

Out of curiosity, you said that it would make sense for RTS players to not use it. Is that for technical reasons, or just opinion? I ask because I do not play RTS.

lp670sv · « **Reply #13 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:45:17 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 08:43:58 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 08:39:11 PM
Okay, allow me to use a different word: top players simply won't be using it, for the same reason that top players won't be using the 0/2 Buckler, or how top players won't be using a pure silver offense.

Top players in which state? Or are we just talking those players that attend Nats? Or is this only about ROOT? All of those categories have completely different populations.

Out of curiosity, you said that it would make sense for RTS players to not use it. Is that for technical reasons, or just opinion? I ask because I do not play RTS.

You want gallows so that you don't have to rip plots and run out. Plots in RTS are unlimited.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #14 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:47:40 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 08:43:58 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 08:39:11 PM
Okay, allow me to use a different word: top players simply won't be using it, for the same reason that top players won't be using the 0/2 Buckler, or how top players won't be using a pure silver offense.

Top players in which state? Or are we just talking those players that attend Nats? Or is this only about ROOT? All of those categories have completely different populations.

Out of curiosity, you said that it would make sense for RTS players to not use it. Is that for technical reasons, or just opinion? I ask because I do not play RTS.

I guess you want to the argument. I'll make sure to point back to my first post the next time you complain about how much dissention occurs on the boards, or the next time you go on about respect, or whatnot.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:49:47 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on December 26, 2011, 08:45:17 PM

You want gallows so that you don't have to rip plots and run out. Plots in RTS are unlimited.

Ah. That makes sense. Thanks!

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:51:32 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 26, 2011, 08:47:40 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 08:43:58 PM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 08:39:11 PM
Okay, allow me to use a different word: top players simply won't be using it, for the same reason that top players won't be using the 0/2 Buckler, or how top players won't be using a pure silver offense.

Top players in which state? Or are we just talking those players that attend Nats? Or is this only about ROOT? All of those categories have completely different populations.

Out of curiosity, you said that it would make sense for RTS players to not use it. Is that for technical reasons, or just opinion? I ask because I do not play RTS.

I guess you want to the argument. I'll make sure to point back to my first post the next time you complain about how much dissention occurs on the boards, or the next time you go on about respect, or whatnot.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 26, 2011, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 08:26:36 PM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 07:54:59 PM
Though to be fair, nobody really uses Gallows right now. I haven't run into one all season, and while it makes sense that people wouldn't have a Gallows on RTS, serious players simply won't be using it.

Why is it exactly that you get to decide what "serious" players are using?

You know the answer to this just as much as anyone else who responds to this. Do you actually want someone to respond to this and start an argument?

I'm not sure what your problem is here. The others in this thread have responded to my questions peacefully, including Chronic Apathy himself. I'm not sure I understand why we can not have an intelligent conversation about this topic.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #17 on:** December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 08:43:58 PM

Top players in which state? Or are we just talking those players that attend Nats? Or is this only about ROOT? All of those categories have completely different populations.

I'm referring to top players at a national level; people like Gabe. Because Persians aren't a viable defense (anytime I make a comment, unless I clarify, I'm talking about T1), and virtually every top player at a national level isn't going to view the slot for Gallows as worth it just to avoid tearing a Plot, the card simply isn't going to find its way into any top decks, outside of a large amount of luck. In ROOT and RTS, no top players will use it because on top of Persians not being viable, there is no physical Plot to tear, which makes it even less justifiable than normal. I don't follow the individual state metas, except for my own (which is kind of the lower NE region, since we have PA players and MD players who play in the tournaments) and to an extent, the MN meta. In general though, the PA/MD meta is defined by what's going on online, since most of us are active on the forums, and the MN helps define the national meta more than any other state.

On another note, YMT, you did come off as pretty hostile in your initial post. Perhaps I should have used the word "top" instead of "serious," but I'm a bit confused why you worded your response so accusingly.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** December 26, 2011, 09:18:09 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

I'm referring to top players at a national level; people like Gabe.

Would Gabe care to comment?

[somehow I think he won't ever see this]

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

(anytime I make a comment, unless I clarify, I'm talking about T1),

That's good to know. Hobbit can now stand redeemed as a "serious player."

FTR, I only play T1, so I always make statements about rulings from a T1 perspective. No wonder the T2 players give me dirty looks.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

and virtually every top player at a national level isn't going to view the slot for Gallows as worth it just to avoid tearing a Plot, the card simply isn't going to find its way into any top decks, outside of a large amount of luck.

So is this more about card slots, or about Persian defenses in general?

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

In ROOT and RTS, no top players will use it because on top of Persians not being viable, there is no physical Plot to tear, which makes it even less justifiable than normal.

Yes. lp670sv explained this for me. I understand now. Sorry for my lack of understanding.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

I don't follow the individual state metas, except for my own (which is kind of the lower NE region, since we have PA players and MD players who play in the tournaments) and to an extent, the MN meta.

So it's OK for Persians to be top dog in Florida still....

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

In general though, the PA/MD meta is defined by what's going on online, since most of us are active on the forums,

This I did not realize. Y'all must feel at home on ROOT then.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

and the MN helps define the national meta more than any other state.

I wonder why.....

Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to play the MN crew. Maybe some day....

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

On another note, YMT, you did come off as pretty hostile in your initial post. Perhaps I should have used the word "top" instead of "serious," but I'm a bit confused why you worded your response so accusingly.

Sorry about that. I did not mean it accusingly. Context and tone probably attributed to that. I wanted to know what the justification for the statement was. Most of that has now been answered.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #19 on:** December 26, 2011, 09:36:17 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM

and virtually every top player at a national level isn't going to view the slot for Gallows as worth it just to avoid tearing a Plot, the card simply isn't going to find its way into any top decks, outside of a large amount of luck.

So is this more about card slots, or about Persian defenses in general?[/quote]

It's both, honestly. Regarding card slots, it's extremely hard to justify choosing something like Haman's Gallows over other cards like Captured Ark or perhaps A Slave. Regarding Persian defenses, they are simply not good enough that top decks will use them, and even if they were, the benefit of Persians not being ignored is largely situational.

Quote

So it's OK for Persians to be top dog in Florida still....

I was actually going to ask you about that, since the Florida meta is noteworthy as being an entity all its own.

Quote

I wonder why..... Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to play the MN crew. Maybe some day....

I would encourage you to learn the mechanics of RTS and play on ROOT then, as well as encourage your playgroup to do the same. It's a fantastic way to play top players, and everyone is on slightly more equal footing (I'm currently in the lead of ROOT as a whole, despite my being perhaps a slightly above average player, but nothing extraordinary).

Quote

Sorry about that. I did not mean it accusingly. Context and tone probably attributed to that. I wanted to know what the justification for the statement was. Most of that has now been answered.

Don't sweat it. Tone cannot be communicated as well via text, which is why I didn't initially react.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** December 26, 2011, 10:02:03 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:36:17 PM

Don't sweat it. Tone cannot be communicated as well via text, which is why I didn't initially react.

I still hold myself accountable for my words, even if I did not mean it the way it came across. Percpetion is still important. That would explain Alex's response to my posts. He must have read my post as accusational as well. Alex, I do appreciate your attempts to hold me accountable, even though I did not see what you were seeing.

I openly ask everyone that if anything I say does come across negatively that you feel free to PM me. I will not take it personally. I often make the mistake of not reading my posts assuming an unknown tone. In retrospect, I can see how my words could come across terribly different than I intended. At the same time, I am human, so I may make statements that I simply should not have made. I expect to be held accountable in both circumstances. In the first case, I will simply reword my post to what I meant. In the second case, repentence and reconciliation would be required.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #21 on:** December 26, 2011, 10:03:59 PM »

If only everyone here was so mature and collected.

Drrek · « **Reply #22 on:** December 26, 2011, 10:52:24 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 10:03:59 PM

If only everyone here was so mature and collected.

I love that the person you call so mature is the "forum jester"

SomeKittens · « **Reply #23 on:** December 27, 2011, 04:01:54 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 10:03:59 PM

If only everyone here was so mature and collected.

I'd love to post something completely immature and uncollected here (say, "buttfartz"), but I won't, seeing as I'm a model member.

STAMP · « **Reply #24 on:** December 27, 2011, 05:34:03 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on December 26, 2011, 08:42:31 PM

I could see people using it in a persian type 1 defense and I would use it in type 2 to avoid building identical decks. BTW r u saying T2 playerz r n0t seriouz? Were seriouz,seriouz bidness man.

Hobbitses iz correct.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 26, 2011, 09:18:09 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 26, 2011, 09:03:05 PM
(anytime I make a comment, unless I clarify, I'm talking about T1),

That's good to know. Hobbit can now stand redeemed as a "serious player."

FTR, I only play T1, so I always make statements about rulings from a T1 perspective. No wonder the T2 players give me dirty looks.

No harm, no foul. Just band in MJB or me if you get in a bind.

News:

Author Topic: Plot useless? (Read 7148 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

TheHobbit13

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy