Author Topic: Is Drawing Really a Problem? (Read 4473 times)

Gabe · « **on:** April 22, 2015, 01:10:28 AM »

To springboard from the recent discussion on The Angel Under the Oak, is drawing really a problem?

kariusvega · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2015, 01:26:02 PM »

anyway to get to play intended strategies will make the game more fun for strategists:

revealing - fortress of antonia, nunc dimitis, divination, eve
drawing - fishing boat, mayhem, provisions, popular cards
searching - golden cherubim, gabriel (i), scribe

aquila and the holy spirit may currently be my favorite search cards. the holy spirit and the fruit of the spirit has got to be my favorite idea in the early church. i love love!!

these are just a few great examples to get to cards to show off strategies which is the most fun part of the game, i believe. showing and learning unique strategies within deck building and through play all with the objective of rescuing lost souls.

personally i feel like more reveal cards could be best since there is probably the least amount of anti reveal, as far as i know.

gates of hell is a huge reveal card in a way because it allows you to reveal your bottom card and typically if i use it i know it's a demon. i feel like more reveal for ot black and red could help them deck. it really is a general topic but looking at the key parts of the entire spectrum through lots of experience allows for one to see where certain brigades could use these options.

it's just like a rainbow, are all of the colors shining as brightly as the others?

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #2 on:** April 22, 2015, 02:03:59 PM »

FYI, problem with page on LandofRedemption

Gabe · « **Reply #3 on:** April 22, 2015, 02:16:29 PM »

Thanks for your feedback, kariusvega!

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on April 22, 2015, 02:03:59 PM

FYI, problem with page on LandofRedemption

What kind of problem? The link above is working for me.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 22, 2015, 04:01:10 PM »

Yes drawing is a major problem especially in a game with a base d3 and no cost system.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** April 22, 2015, 04:15:33 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 22, 2015, 04:01:10 PM

Yes drawing is a major problem especially in a game with a base d3 and no cost system.

Nathan, could you take some time to explain what you mean and provide some explanation as to why you feel the way you do? If you don't want to post it here you can PM me.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 22, 2015, 04:39:36 PM »

First when I look at potential problems in redemption I look at comparisons in other ccgs. Magic has a base draw of 1 every turn. In addition to this there are definitely cards that draw additional cards but I have never seen more than a +2. But draw cards are less frequent and generally have a high drop. Lord of the rings has very few draw cards like magic and again a high cost. Second, its important to note that you lose if you deck and both have a cost system. The cost system restricts the amount of cards you can play so even if you draw a lot you won't be able to pay them all. In redemption you can use any characters, sites, fortresses, sites, artifacts, and dominants you get.

And saying that the win condition is such that the game needs drawing is not entirely fair. In magic and other games you need to play cards to win and need to draw manna to play cards.

Even in a vacuum its obvious that every top deck utilizes drawing. Something that centralized at least deserves attention.

Drrek · « **Reply #7 on:** April 22, 2015, 04:50:55 PM »

In magic you can have multiples of a card in your deck, and your win condition is entirely independent of your opponent's draw. Redemption is a game with a lot of drawing and yet we still have timeouts every round at major tournaments.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 22, 2015, 05:07:15 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 22, 2015, 04:50:55 PM

In magic you can have multiples of a card in your deck, and your win condition is entirely independent of your opponent's draw.

Why does this give redemption a pass to have ridiculous amounts of drawing? I am sorry but this is an invalid excuse because the game was fine before all the drawing.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2015, 05:13:13 PM »

In the more strategic formats of Pokemon, it's a lot of searching for specific kinds of cards (presently there's a mixture of search and excessive draw). You have the cards that help you win, and the cards that help you get those cards. This is a great setup.

When you have draw effects, things become more random. Search will always be better than Draw 1, but not always better than Draw 2, because you might draw the card you want to search for plus another card (and there may be multiple outs to it). However, you also might not.

To help counter this randomness (I believe), we've added even more draw to the game. After all, being able to draw more cards makes decks more consistent, and being able to rely on consistency instead of randomness is a good thing. However, things slowly spiral out of control and we end up where we are, with decks being able to be consistent, but then you have those few games that you just blame things on the randomness of those draws.

However, some drawing is fairly necessary because you need a way to gain card advantage. Otherwise you run out of resources (unless you're playing less than 3 cards per turn), or you have to play cards that allow you to search for multiples (which is even more busted unless there's a cost associated). Drawing fills this role nicely.

In general, card advantage should either be card for card (i.e. you play a card and get a card--"cycling") or minimal increasement.

Is drawing a problem? No. But there's a right way to do it and a wrong way. Putting it on heroes is always dangerous because they can use it repeatedly. Is it a problem with Redemption currently? I don't know the current meta well enough to say, but I would say no. I wish we had more conditional searching in the game as opposed to large draws, but overall I think there are very few problem cards in regards to drawing. AutO isn't broken because of the draw, he'd still be good if it was different.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2015, 05:25:55 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 22, 2015, 04:39:36 PM

First when I look at potential problems in redemption I look at comparisons in other ccgs. Magic has a base draw of 1 every turn. In addition to this there are definitely cards that draw additional cards but I have never seen more than a +2. But draw cards are less frequent and generally have a high drop. Lord of the rings has very few draw cards like magic and again a high cost. Second, its important to note that you lose if you deck and both have a cost system. The cost system restricts the amount of cards you can play so even if you draw a lot you won't be able to pay them all. In redemption you can use any characters, sites, fortresses, sites, artifacts, and dominants you get.

And saying that the win condition is such that the game needs drawing is not entirely fair. In magic and other games you need to play cards to win and need to draw manna to play cards.

Even in a vacuum its obvious that every top deck utilizes drawing. Something that centralized at least deserves attention.

You seem to be a little wrong about your MtG facts, I frequently use cards that let me draw much more than 2 or 3 cards (I'm not sure if you were referring to drawing 2 cards or gaining 2 card advantage) In fact I've drawn 10+ cards with a single MtG card.

Secondly comparing Redemptions draw 3 to MtGs (or any other card games draw) isn't really fair, because the game requires that we gain a decent amount of cards for the game to function properly. I have played another game where each player drew 3 cards on almost every turn (your and your opponents) was that a problem? Not at all, it was just how the game functioned.

Every top deck utilizing drawing isn't really a problem in and of itself either. Every top deck utilized battle winners. Every top deck utilizes characters. Every top deck utilizes Lost Souls with special abilities. I could go on, but you hopefully get the point. Just because every deck uses something doesn't mean it's a bad thing, it might just be a big part of the game. Now individual card draw cards might be too powerful, which is what the discussion on Angel Under the Oak was about, one specific, easily repeatable card draw card. And we have to make sure that individual cards don't become so powerful that not using them puts you in a severe disadvantage (I'm looking at you dominants) otherwise the game will be more determined by those individual cards and that could kill deck variety.

kram1138 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2015, 06:16:40 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 22, 2015, 04:39:36 PM

First when I look at potential problems in redemption I look at comparisons in other ccgs.

I haven't played much of other CCGs, but if you're looking at potential problems in Redemption by how another game handles, you'll find problems that may not be there. Just because Redemption has something that is different from MtG, Pokemon and/or something else, doesn't mean it's a problem. Not that looking at other CCGs for comparison is bad, but you have to keep in mind that the other games have other things that affect and are affected by the potential problem in question.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2015, 06:55:26 PM »

I've played 75-100 games against national champions on lackey since it came out. The majority of those games would end in timeout in tournament play. Defense is so good right now it's hard to redeem souls. Speed is not King. If my many games with Justin and Jerome (both players I would put top 15 in the country) are any kind of depiction of the meta. (Or even what top players are playing) We are going to need YMT just to help us calculate who is winning what tournaments because of timeouts and timeout ties.

Honestly I am prepared to take full advantage of turn timers at nats. Not to be rude but to try and dodge timeouts. I may even bring a stop watch.

All this to say "no" drawing is not an issue. If players want to they can counter it because we have printed enough counters.

Pigs, Foreign Wives, Nicanor, The God of this World, 7 years of Famine, Mayhem (yes it can counter drawing), CWD, gifts of the magi, abomb, priests of Zeus im sure there are more i just listed these off the top of my head.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2015, 08:36:23 PM »

Personally I am getting sick of counters as a bad excuses for poor card design. If you make a mistake own it, don't tie peoples hands behind their backs in deck building.

Red · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2015, 08:54:50 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 22, 2015, 06:55:26 PM

I've played 75-100 games against national champions on lackey since it came out. The majority of those games would end in timeout in tournament play. Defense is so good right now it's hard to redeem souls. Speed is not King. If my many games with Justin and Jerome (both players I would put top 15 in the country) are any kind of depiction of the meta. (Or even what top players are playing) We are going to need YMT just to help us calculate who is winning what tournaments because of timeouts and timeout ties.

Honestly I am prepared to take full advantage of turn timers at nats. Not to be rude but to try and dodge timeouts. I may even bring a stop watch.

All this to say "no" drawing is not an issue. If players want to they can counter it because we have printed enough counters.

Pigs, Foreign Wives, Nicanor, The God of this World, 7 years of Famine, Mayhem (yes it can counter drawing), CWD, gifts of the magi, abomb, priests of Zeus im sure there are more i just listed these off the top of my head.

Golden Cherubim, Rain becomes Dust, Speed bump lost soul, Iron Pan.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2015, 11:15:28 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 22, 2015, 08:36:23 PM

Personally I am getting sick of counters as a bad excuses for poor card design. If you make a mistake own it, don't tie peoples hands behind their backs in deck building.

I agree on this point. If you're releasing a powerful card at least print a counter for it in the same set, don't create one a set later. It doesn't look good.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2015, 08:37:55 AM »

Drawing isn't the problem, the whole discussion on AutO to me doesn't matter about drawing. You get two CBN cards? Fine. What irks me is the I exchange to Gideon your only choice is to avoid dying or use an enhancement with regardless of protection. Or I have two evil characters in territory and he exchanged to Jepthah now I have no defense. Or he exchanged to Ehud, he's choosing my 8/12 Philistine to block when I have no negate power. While the draw is good that's not what worries me about him it's the exchange part. If I was worried about drawing there are several heroes that draw more than AutO, I've never really worried about them though. Okay I just did a lot of blah blah blahing, but my final point is I don't really think drawing is a problem.
That's my two cents.

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2015, 08:54:05 AM »

Quote from: Eragon5 on April 23, 2015, 08:37:55 AM

What irks me is the I exchange to Gideon your only choice is to avoid dying or use an enhancement with regardless of protection. Or I have two evil characters in territory and he exchanged to Jepthah now I have no defense. Or he exchanged to Ehud, he's choosing my 8/12 Philistine to block when I have no negate power.

As someone who plays judges, just to counter those points: Gideon does not stop the most effective blocks, which don't even target the hero (suicide/protection/manipulation), and I rarely] exchange for him. Jephthah is once per game, costs the top of deck, and frankly we have protect forts and CP because there are far worse hits like that (ET+AoCP, for instance). Ehud and Jair are almost always going to be better options, but in your example only Edict will really be a winner and if you don't have a negate then...I'm not sure how you were going to use that character anyway effectively, sorry.

All that said, that's the point I was making in the other thread, that he is so strong because he is any judge and a D2. He just makes them all better and gets out the one you need at the moment, the draw is something that puts him over the top.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2015, 09:35:33 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 23, 2015, 08:54:05 AM

Quote from: Eragon5 on April 23, 2015, 08:37:55 AM
What irks me is the I exchange to Gideon your only choice is to avoid dying or use an enhancement with regardless of protection. Or I have two evil characters in territory and he exchanged to Jepthah now I have no defense. Or he exchanged to Ehud, he's choosing my 8/12 Philistine to block when I have no negate power.

As someone who plays judges, just to counter those points: Gideon does not stop the most effective blocks, which don't even target the hero (suicide/protection/manipulation), and I rarely] exchange for him. Jephthah is once per game, costs the top of deck, and frankly we have protect forts and CP because there are far worse hits like that (ET+AoCP, for instance). Ehud and Jair are almost always going to be better options, but in your example only Edict will really be a winner and if you don't have a negate then...I'm not sure how you were going to use that character anyway effectively, sorry.

All that said, that's the point I was making in the other thread, that he is so strong because he is any judge and a D2. He just makes them all better and gets out the one you need at the moment, the draw is something that puts him over the top.

Sorry I'm assuming we're talking straight up slug fest, not suicide and more, obviously you choose characters for the situation. With Gideon I'm assuming my opponent doesn't have the characters or right brigade for those cards. Same with Jepthah obviously my opponent won't switch to Jepthah if my characters are protected. As for Samuels edict, I don't see how you think that's the only battle winner if I have no negate power, Shamgar's oxgoad, furnace of God's wrath, even a card such as Thrown into the sea would wreck my chances at blocking. Maybe I'm not understanding something, but what I'm saying about the Ehud scenario is that if he chooses my character that won't have initiative then all he needs to play is a single battle winner even if it's as simple as trumpet and sword. If he has Edict even if I chose who blocked I'll be in trouble anyway as you said, regardless who blocks.

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Author Topic: Is Drawing Really a Problem? (Read 4473 times)

kariusvega

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk