Author Topic: Enforcing Time Limits: Redux (Read 9010 times)

EmJayBee83 · « **on:** April 24, 2015, 11:13:12 AM »

I would like to take this chance to recast my statements in regard to how I would play if faced with an opponent who brought a stop watch to our game...

If I ever face an opponent with a turn timer or a stop watch, I would jump to two immediate conclusions:

My opponent feels his deck plays best at a certain pace.
My opponent is unlikely to grant me any leeway in those situations that arise in most every game where the board state becomes complicated and additional time to plan would be valuable.

My response to the first of these conclusions, could well be to come to the conclusion (if my deck supported it) that it is in my strategic interest to reduce the tempo of my play. There is clearly no rule against a player playing with a deliberate tempo, as we all know of players--even those of the highest caliber--for whom spending close to the full amount of allotted time on their turns is not unexpected. There is also clearly no rule against a player choosing to vary his tempo to suit a strategic or tactical purpose.

In response to the second of my conclusions, the only rational (used in the game theoretic sense) approach would be to do as much pre-calculation of possible complicated game states and to spend time attempting to plan/create a favorable situation for myself. Additional calculations of this nature inherently require more time. There is clearly no rule against a player taking sufficient time (with the stated limits) to plan his course of play.

The final result is that for purely rational reasons (once again from a game theoretic stand point) my turns probably will end up taking significantly longer when playing against a player who decides to bring a stop watch or timing clock to a game than would otherwise have been the case.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2015, 11:55:19 AM »

I appreciate understanding your rational. Honestly, I understand that from a game play stand point and wouldn't consider that petty or unsportsmanlike. I think previously struggled with the thought that timing out each turn was simply to " get back" at a player who brings a stop watch.

Thank you for clarifying :-)

Also I said I would bring a stop watch but honestly as I think about it now trying to remeber to clock an opponents every phase would be too distracting and would hinder my ability to play the game. Thus I won't be bringing a stop watch.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2015, 12:27:57 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 24, 2015, 11:55:19 AM

I appreciate understanding your rational. Honestly, I understand that from a game play stand point and wouldn't consider that petty or unsportsmanlike. I think previously struggled with the thought that timing out each turn was simply to " get back" at a player who brings a stop watch.

I did say that because I was being hyperbolic for effect. I probably should stop doing that. By way of explanation for the hyperbole, I do think that an opponent actively using a stop watch or a timing clock during a game would come across as intimidating--especially to younger players or folks who naturally play slow. Whether such intimidation is intentional or not*, I don't think someone should have an in-game advantage because of it.

*I accept that for your part it would be completely unintentional.

Quote

Thank you for clarifying :-)

I thought it worth rebooting the topic if people would actually like to contribute without the heat.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2015, 12:41:59 PM »

I have seen in both YGO and MTG tournaments, a player was disqualified for taking all the time allotted to make adjustments to his deck between games because it was so close to the end of regulation. Because he took his time it went to time and thus a draw which was better for him than his opponent. He was fully within his rights but the judge ruled in both instances that it was done intentionally in order to achieve a draw because the next game was not started. Obviously since we don't currently have a best 2 of 3 situation, something like this would happen differently...i.e. someone using all of their time in order for the game to end in a timeout.

Having said that, we have experimented with using timers in Redemption. We got chess timers so that each player could clock their turns. The issue is that within my turn my opponent has time to make decisions as well so instead of hitting the timer after the end of each turn you have to hit the timer after each card is played in battle specifically. That can get tedious. If there is an issue with a player taking too much time then a judge should be called over and the judge make that call like in the scenarios above. Otherwise, I think that having any type of physical timer is not helpful.

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2015, 01:14:07 PM »

Matt, thank you for explaining your point of view in detail. This makes so much more sense now. What I heard you saying previously seemed spiteful. Now I understand your point is far more strategic and uses the resources at your disposal.

We see sports teams attempt to control the pace of the game all the time. While Redemption is much different it's not unreasonable to think that it's to a players advantage to control the pace of the game as well.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2015, 08:01:45 PM »

I guessed I missed the original thread, but I will reiterate my previous concerns with setting time limits. I have young players who have learning disabilities, autism, and general apprehension issues. To bring timers, stop watches and the like would unnecessarily intimidate and frustrate them. This kind of legalism will drive them away from Redemption. I would hope that we would not want to create an exclusive and elitist game atmosphere at official tournaments. I certainly will not condone this at my personal tournaments. Be it known that if you are coming to my tournaments, stop watches and other timing mechanisms will not be allowed. If you are concerned about your opponent stalling, call me over to your table and I will observe, then decide if a warning is warranted.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2015, 10:35:41 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2015, 08:01:45 PM

I guessed I missed the original thread, but I will reiterate my previous concerns with setting time limits. I have young players who have learning disabilities, autism, and general apprehension issues. To bring timers, stop watches and the like would unnecessarily intimidate and frustrate them. This kind of legalism will drive them away from Redemption. I would hope that we would not want to create an exclusive and elitist game atmosphere at official tournaments. I certainly will not condone this at my personal tournaments. Be it known that if you are coming to my tournaments, stop watches and other timing mechanisms will not be allowed. If you are concerned about your opponent stalling, call me over to your table and I will observe, then decide if a warning is warranted.

I am curious what you would think of a player elected to use a stop watch in top cut only at nationals?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2015, 11:08:32 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 24, 2015, 10:35:41 PM

I am curious what you would think of a player elected to use a stop watch in top cut only at nationals?

I am curious why you would assume a player with a learning disability, autism or general apprehension issues would not be able to make top cut.

Drrek · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2015, 12:46:42 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2015, 11:08:32 PM

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 24, 2015, 10:35:41 PM
I am curious what you would think of a player elected to use a stop watch in top cut only at nationals?

I am curious why you would assume a player with a learning disability, autism or general apprehension issues would not be able to make top cut.

Because, and I'm really not trying to sound mean, they probably wouldn't.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2015, 01:15:33 AM »

I think we need to back off of that mindset immediately. YMT...I am not sure that is what he was implying but I could be wrong. I may not be an elder or a mod but as a long standing member of these boards we need to have some grace and mercy in lieu of the previous comments and because of what Jesus has done for us.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2015, 01:36:55 AM »

I wanted to let this version of the thread go without comment from me, so I'm just going to focus on this last bit of action as a mod only.

I fear that jbeers285's statement is being taken out of context, where the question is not any sort of slight to those with learning disabilities or apprehension, but more a genuine inquiry about YMT's thoughts about timers at the very highest levels of play (top cut at Nationals being the highest it goes), given that YMT's concern was framed more specifically in regards to his players and his tournaments.

In the same way, I fear that YMT's statement is being taken out of context, where I see his statement being an affirmation of his previous position, essentially saying that there is no reason to believe that top cut can't include those who could be adversely affected due to their nature or background. I also see a confirmation that he stands behind his original post when referencing all levels of play (as he referenced official tournaments in general already).

Text is very difficult to convey tone or intent with, so we should try to assume less sinister intentions from those we are having a text discussion with. Please keep that in mind as this thread continues, hopefully without derailment.

Thank you

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2015, 02:27:23 AM »

Honestly top cut feels like your bring baked in a pressure cooker, not sure how much worse a timer could make it.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2015, 04:42:09 AM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 25, 2015, 12:46:42 AM

Because, and I'm really not trying to sound mean, they probably wouldn't.

I will speak, then, from 15 years experience as a teacher. Most people that have a learning disability have a very specific deficiency with the process of receiving information, understanding information, applying information, generating a response mentally, and then generating a response externally. The disability can be in just one of those areas. Therefore, a student may be able to see what you just did in a Redemption game, understand what you just did (or are trying to do), come up with a great response or strategy, but then not be able to make their hands play the appropriate cards immediately. They simply need time to get their hand to do what their mind is thinking.

A practical example in my classroom is the student who understands what I am teaching, but when I ask a question, they are not able to get the answer out verbally without difficulty. That is why I will give a dramatic pause after my question, sometimes for up to a minute. For some people, that may seem like an awkward silence, and they may assume that no one actually knows the answer. But my experience indicates that the answer will come if the students are given enough time to think about it.

To assume, then, that a person with a learning disability can not compete at the highest level is IMO an invalid conclusion. However, things like timers will simply exclude them from these competitions, regardless of their actual ability to win. That is why schools have 504 Plans and IEPs, to give these students what they need to be successful, which is usually just a little more time.

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 25, 2015, 02:27:23 AM

Honestly top cut feels like your bring baked in a pressure cooker, not sure how much worse a timer could make it.

You would know better than I, Master Hobbit.

New Raven BR · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2015, 08:24:15 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 24, 2015, 11:13:12 AM

I would like to take this chance to recast my statements in regard to how I would play if faced with an opponent who brought a stop watch to our game...

If I ever face an opponent with a turn timer or a stop watch, I would jump to two immediate conclusions:
My opponent feels his deck plays best at a certain pace.
My opponent is unlikely to grant me any leeway in those situations that arise in most every game where the board state becomes complicated and additional time to plan would be valuable.

My response to the first of these conclusions, could well be to come to the conclusion (if my deck supported it) that it is in my strategic interest to reduce the tempo of my play. There is clearly no rule against a player playing with a deliberate tempo, as we all know of players--even those of the highest caliber--for whom spending close to the full amount of allotted time on their turns is not unexpected. There is also clearly no rule against a player choosing to vary his tempo to suit a strategic or tactical purpose.

In response to the second of my conclusions, the only rational (used in the game theoretic sense) approach would be to do as much pre-calculation of possible complicated game states and to spend time attempting to plan/create a favorable situation for myself. Additional calculations of this nature inherently require more time. There is clearly no rule against a player taking sufficient time (with the stated limits) to plan his course of play.

The final result is that for purely rational reasons (once again from a game theoretic stand point) my turns probably will end up taking significantly longer when playing against a player who decides to bring a stop watch or timing clock to a game than would otherwise have been the case.

if we incorporate time limits then I could see speed decks making a comeback cause with a need for speed in regards to time limits, players (meaning myself included) would need to really increase the tempo of one's game cause speed is the way to win in time limits.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2015, 10:37:40 AM »

I am going to be very open here and hope it doesn't get abused.

1. I am offended by the fact that you (YMT) chose to see view my comment in the worst light possible. Not that I need to justify myself but I will. I have younger brother with a large list of mental disabilities that follow him and around and more then once stood up for him as he was attacked verbally. More then once I had to argue with facility owners who were trying to throw him out their facility due to his disabilities.

2. I spent 2 years working and living with senior citizen males who were placed into group homes because their loved ones either couldn't pr wouldn't take care of them anymore. I poured myself (emotions, energy, abilities, time and love) into those gentlemen because they deserve.

3. I volunteer with special needs children on a continual basis. My family actually sits on a board for the Pennsylvania Tourettes Syndrome Alliance. We act as question answers, life supporters and we we offer faith in Jesus Christ to families who are learning to live with Tourette's. (Yes Tourette's effect the entire family not just the on diagnosed with it.)

4. I have been an annual volunteer at the Special Needs Olympics for years.

After that I am going to answer your question YMT. NO, that's not what I am saying.

However anyone who makes top cut is obviously a good player, with a good deck. I would assume that a timer wouldn't effect someone of that caliber in the same way it would effect a first year, 2nd tournament player.

*** I need a break from posting on the boards for awhile. Hopefully things can lighten up and people can quit reading the worst possible things into people's posts.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2015, 11:16:57 AM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 25, 2015, 10:37:40 AM

1. I am offended by the fact that you (YMT) chose to see view my comment in the worst light possible.

Again, this is an assumption that I don't feel is entirely accurate (and will not assume the worst in), especially given YMT's additional response (which made no accusations towards you or your statements). YMT made his position clear about his opinions on timers, and seems to be saying back to you that it doesn't matter what tournament, he does not want the added pressure put on players because it can adversely harm certain individuals. As I said in my earlier post, it seems like everyone has decided to view every post in the worst possible light.

Let's get back on the topic, everyone.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2015, 12:43:06 PM »

My only concern with clocks/timers at a tournament is that it will really run off new and younger players. I know from experience how slow young and new players can be considering that out of my current group of about 10 only 3 (and 2 active) are about 18 years of age. Most of my kids are playing with starter decks plus a handful of cards they have collected, so they have played the same decks probably close to 50 times, but yet still take about a hour to play a game. They are still not use to the game and knowing exactly what to do does not come naturally to them. For instance just this Wednesday, I had Josh (knoxyouthminster) playing a I/J deck against a personal deck that I just helped a player build and was teaching how to play. He would ask me almost every single turn what I would do, and if I even implied that I knew what I would do, the fact that he would make the "wrong" decision completely stressed him out. Now adding a timer to the situation and saying not only do you have to make the "perfect decision" (at least in their mind) and then do it within this extremely detailed time frame, they would just opt to give up their turn even with a sure RA in their hand, just because of the stress. Now I myself would feel no pressure with a timer, due to the fact that I will play my game a the same pace regardless, because I know what I want to do and how to do it. Of course the fact that I am not a top player has nothing to do with this, I have just been playing long enough that I know the cards and what I want. I feel like that if we want this game to continue and grow (which requires new and potentially young) players, we need to be very careful that this game is presented as open and fun, and I don't think a timer is a good way to do that. Now all that being said I do tell them all the time that they need to learn to focus and play the game without distractions because when they play other people they will have to do that, and it does help. There are ways to make sure people don't stall (both intentionally and unintentionally), I just don't think timers are that method!

Drrek · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2015, 12:52:34 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 25, 2015, 12:43:06 PM

My only concern with clocks/timers at a tournament is that it will really run off new and younger players. I know from experience how slow young and new players can be considering that out of my current group of about 10 only 3 (and 2 active) are about 18 years of age. Most of my kids are playing with starter decks plus a handful of cards they have collected, so they have played the same decks probably close to 50 times, but yet still take about a hour to play a game. They are still not use to the game and knowing exactly what to do does not come naturally to them. For instance just this Wednesday, I had Josh (knoxyouthminster) playing a I/J deck against a personal deck that I just helped a player build and was teaching how to play. He would ask me almost every single turn what I would do, and if I even implied that I knew what I would do, the fact that he would make the "wrong" decision completely stressed him out. Now adding a timer to the situation and saying not only do you have to make the "perfect decision" (at least in their mind) and then do it within this extremely detailed time frame, they would just opt to give up their turn even with a sure RA in their hand, just because of the stress. Now I myself would feel no pressure with a timer, due to the fact that I will play my game a the same pace regardless, because I know what I want to do and how to do it. Of course the fact that I am not a top player has nothing to do with this, I have just been playing long enough that I know the cards and what I want. I feel like that if we want this game to continue and grow (which requires new and potentially young) players, we need to be very careful that this game is presented as open and fun, and I don't think a timer is a good way to do that. Now all that being said I do tell them all the time that they need to learn to focus and play the game without distractions because when they play other people they will have to do that, and it does help. There are ways to make sure people don't stall (both intentionally and unintentionally), I just don't think timers are that method!

No one is going to time a new player, because you're almost definitely going to win very fast anyway if you are concerned enough about winning to bring a stopwatch.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2015, 01:55:12 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 25, 2015, 11:16:57 AM

Again, this is an assumption that I don't feel is entirely accurate (and will not assume the worst in), especially given YMT's additional response (which made no accusations towards you or your statements). YMT made his position clear about his opinions on timers, and seems to be saying back to you that it doesn't matter what tournament, he does not want the added pressure put on players because it can adversely harm certain individuals.

You tried.

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 25, 2015, 10:37:40 AM

1. I am offended by the fact that you (YMT) chose to see view my comment in the worst light possible.

I apologize that you were offended by my rhetorical question. I had left the post up since Redoubter clarified my point. I only responded to Drrek because I was not expecting anyone to actually take his stance. I find it surprising that you were offended by my statements rather than Drrek's, but so be it.

My sincerest apologies nonetheless. The good news is that you will not ever have to worry about meeting me in person.

Gabe · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2015, 02:18:31 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 25, 2015, 01:55:12 PM

The good news is that you will not ever have to worry about meeting me in person.

Unless he goes to Disney World, in which case I'm sure the two of you would thoroughly enjoy sitting down and playing a game together, provided Josiah leaves his timer behind.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2015, 02:19:30 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 25, 2015, 02:27:23 AM

Honestly top cut feels like your bring baked in a pressure cooker, not sure how much worse a timer could make it.

How does this post not have more + 1s

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2015, 02:27:51 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 25, 2015, 02:19:30 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 25, 2015, 02:27:23 AM
Honestly top cut feels like your bring baked in a pressure cooker, not sure how much worse a timer could make it.

How does this post not have more + 1s

I quoted it, does that count? I can't give him agreement when I will never have any practical experience. The only way I will ever be in top cut is if I become a barber.

Quote from: Gabe on April 25, 2015, 02:18:31 PM

Unless he goes to Disney World, in which case I'm sure the two of you would thoroughly enjoy sitting down and playing a game together, provided Josiah leaves his timer behind.

After Universal Studios installed metal detectors at the roller coasters to keep people from leaving metal objects in their pockets, Disney World followed with installing Christian detectors at their turnstiles to keep people from bringing Christian things into their parks. We'll have to play Pokémon instead.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2015, 05:00:35 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 25, 2015, 02:19:30 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 25, 2015, 02:27:23 AM
Honestly top cut feels like your bring baked in a pressure cooker, not sure how much worse a timer could make it.

How does this post not have more + 1s

because its about competition

Chris · « **Reply #23 on:** April 25, 2015, 09:24:48 PM »

I think enforcing time limits demonstrates how unworkable a marriage between competition and fellowship is in Redemption. Both sides have excellent points, but ultimately, the fellowship side will (and should) beat the competitive side on this particular issue. I believe that YMT's concerns on the issue of someone bringing a stopwatch are well-founded, and given Redemption's ultimate goal, I find myself agreeing with him. It's a shame that such solid mechanics will never be seen in a truly competitive CCG, but it's the price we pay, I suppose.

Daniel · « **Reply #24 on:** April 26, 2015, 12:02:02 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 25, 2015, 12:46:42 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2015, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: jbeers285 on April 24, 2015, 10:35:41 PM
I am curious what you would think of a player elected to use a stop watch in top cut only at nationals?

I am curious why you would assume a player with a learning disability, autism or general apprehension issues would not be able to make top cut.

Because, and I'm really not trying to sound mean, they probably wouldn't.

A much more tactful and less blatantly ignorant way of defending your stance would be to argue that Top Cut is such a competitive scenario already that it makes sense there would be an allowance of stopwatches/timers.

News:

Author Topic: Enforcing Time Limits: Redux (Read 9010 times)

TheHobbit13

Chris

Daniel