Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Strategies and Combos => Topic started by: stefferweffer on December 20, 2010, 11:15:23 AM
-
I have a bunch of IRL (real life) decks that I and our playgroup play with and have posted in Type 1 decks. I call them Eric's Casual decks. Up until recently I had 17 of them, and this is how they were constructed: Anywhere from 50-70 cards (My heroless has 70), the 4 basic dominants (SOG, AOTL, B, CM), Captured Ark and/or DON, and some means to either heal heroes or bring them back. At least 6 of the lost souls in each deck have a special ability of some kind. Certain artifacts/fortresses would go into certain decks only if it helped with the theme (like Unholy Writ/High Priest's palace in my Sadduccees deck). Each deck also has site access and/or heroes will access to sites.
There were dominants and other cards that I deliberately left out because 1) Other players did not have all these cards, and 2) I only have one copy of each. Those cards were: New Jerusalem promo, Grapes of Wrath, Harvest Time, Guardian of Your Souls, Falling Away, and the "Hopper" lost soul.
Up until recently an experienced player could grab any of these 17 decks and do fairly well against any of the others (although "deck destroy" and WONL lost more than they won).
Then I got the idea to make my first 50 card "speed" deck - deck number 18. And my idea for this deck was that I would throw in all the dominants I mentioned above plus obviously the Hopper lost soul, but (in theory) I would balance it by not including ANY defense other than lost soul manipulation and evil dominants.
This weekend I got to try the new "no defense" deck and the result was surprising and disappointing. In its 4 games it blew past all my other decks, and one deck made by someone else, with incredible ease. The most lost souls anyone got against it was 3 (one game).
I'm not saying that my new deck in unstoppable, because a huge defense or even another speed deck would probably really mess it up (I need to pit it against the huge defense of my 70 card heroless next). But so far it seems to me that throwing in a bunch of cards to overcome lost soul drought, combined with a ton of huge dominants and the ability to draw cards really fast, is king. Like I said, my other 17 decks have fun against each other, but my deck that NEVER BLOCKS seems to top them all. This just doesn't seem right.
Can you understand my frustration? One would think that never blocking a rescue attempt would "even out" these decks.
-
Defenseless took second or third at 2005 nationals, so it's always been viable, although usually there's one game that you just can't get a break on. Try it against one of Pol's balanced decks online sometime, since he's been saying that those will beat speed every time.
-
The problem is you're comparing an A grade deck to B and C (some D) grade decks. A speed deck is going to murder a casual deck almost every time. In other words, it's like introducing a shark into a lake filled with bluegill and some Pike.
-
The problem is you're comparing an A grade deck to B and C (some D) grade decks. A speed deck is going to murder a casual deck almost every time. In other words, it's like introducing a shark into a lake filled with bluegill and some Pike.
Yes, but I thought that the difference in dominants would be mitigated by never blocking. I just didn't expect the dominants to make such a huge difference since it was accompanied by lack of defense. It's just making me like dominants even less than I did before. Like I said, I was surprised, but I guess I should not have been.
-
Nope. Casual decks, by their nature, can't stand up to the fury of a full compliment of Dominants and massive speed (and when you say no defense, you don't really mean no defense I'm sure). A balanced real deck with its own full selection of cards can make pretty short work of a speed deck, but a deck that's not living up to its full potential in order to be accessible to no players will get plowed.
-
Yeah, I suppose "no block" is a better way to describe it, but it also does not have sites, Unholy Writ, etc. It's entire "defense" is Burial. Christian Martyr, Falling Away, Amalekite Slave, and special ability lost souls. Of the 5 of those, only Falling Away is unique to this deck. It's just that when you add in New Jerusalem, Grapes of Wrath, "Hopper", Harvest Time, and Woman at the Well, which the other decks don't have, it tips the scales too far. Having a lot of NT and female heroes helps too (for lost soul access).
I am starting to believe that a deck's ability to eliminate lost soul drought is more important than the "despised" New Jerusalem promo. With all of the above "lost souls generating" cards in one deck, I was amazed how much more often this deck had lost souls to rescue than your standard 50-56 carder.
-
That's basically what a Speed/Attack deck is...one that has replaced defensive cards with cards that help ensure you can make a rescue attempt every possible turn and cards that help you get to your dominants faster than your opponent.
-
Nope. Casual decks, by their nature, can't stand up to the fury of a full compliment of Dominants and massive speed (and when you say no defense, you don't really mean no defense I'm sure). A balanced real deck with its own full selection of cards can make pretty short work of a speed deck
Really? I used to play balanced decks in type 1 until Garden Tomb came out. I still want to make them work but I just can't seem to. I went to Nationals with a balanced deck to be different and it didn't do very well at all, in fact it went 7-3 or 6-4. I would rather play with a balanced deck that a speed deck but they don't seem to be as effective. Your thoughts?
-
That was true the past 3 seasons. But now, especially with the advent of Herod's Temple making AoCP, Zeal, AotL not a guaranteed rescue anymore, and territory destruction and PBI being infeasible thanks to the new Sites, the era of the balanced deck has returned.
-
PBI is still feasible, it's just not as flexible as it once was (as in you need to include more cards to make it work).
I don't think a balanced deck will always beat a speed deck, (poor draws are still a factor), but they certainly have more going for them with the new cards as Pol pointed out.
-
Speed decks have always had their for sure guaranteed rescues. These rescues are no longer guaranteed as you can either not be PBI'ed, or you can d/c a card for Herod's Temple and save yourself. So now these speed decks with for sure battle winners are no longer for sure battle winners. BUT the balanced deck has to get out these counters before the speed deck gets to 3, that's the issue. The reason my deck did so well in type 1 was because I could stop the "for sure" rescues. AotL/Grapes/Zeal/AoCp was countered with LS add a blocker, Unknown Nation, Unholy Writ, my own dominants, and Gates of Hell. If you can stop the guaranteed rescues you can beat a speed deck, but a speed/attack deck should blow through a sub par deck because as I stated, you need your dominants to stop their dominants.
-
funny though, how herods temple helps speed even more now.
-
That was true the past 3 seasons. But now, especially with the advent of Herod's Temple making AoCP, Zeal, AotL not a guaranteed rescue anymore, and territory destruction and PBI being infeasible thanks to the new Sites, the era of the balanced deck has returned.
Yeah there are good counters out there but there have been good counters for a few years now. I think the real problem with these counters is that you have to draw them before speed gets its big guns out (which can be difficult given the nature of speed decks). In addition, when playing balanced decks, I find that it is sometimes difficult to get what cards you need on offense and defense. I sometimes find myself in a hole were I can't attack and cannot defend (either by a bad draw or just the wrong combinations of cards). I guess there are pros and cons to any strategy though and then there is the draw factor. WIth that being said I think I am going to try a balanced decks out again. First of all they are more fun to play and secondly I think my brain needs a break from the mind numbing simplicity of speed. However if doesn't work I will just blame Justin Bieber.
-
However if doesn't work I will just blame Justin Bieber.
I endorse this plan.
-
Yeah there are good counters out there but there have been good counters for a few years now.
Well, kind of but not really. Unknown Nation, Site Guard LS, and Gates of Hell were the only real counters to the guaranteed rescues until this set, and even those couldn't be used if TGT was in effect. Now, you still have all that plus Golgotha to stop TGT, more LS's that hide themselves or others, HT to potentially stop up to 3 rescues (and with most speed decks, if you stop just one they can't win), many, many more blocks that don't even give them the chance to play a "guaranteed rescue" card, Nazareth to stop their tutoring, etc. In other words, there have been a few counters and a few checks before, but now there are plethora counters that aren't dead cards against non-speed. Even one of the best checks, RBD, is more usable now that Balaam can no-cost instant recur it.
I think the real problem with these counters is that you have to draw them before speed gets its big guns out (which can be difficult given the nature of speed decks).
This is less of a problem considering you can have a TON of speed-counters in an A-grade deck, and all you really need is one or two to halt a speed offense. Furthermore, with the massive proliferation of Sites, you only need to draw any counter before your opponent draws their big guns and access (since speed offenses will not have organic site access).
In addition, when playing balanced decks, I find that it is sometimes difficult to get what cards you need on offense and defense. I sometimes find myself in a hole were I can't attack and cannot defend (either by a bad draw or just the wrong combinations of cards).
If it happens occasionally, that's just how it goes sometimes. If it happens consistently, that's bad deckbuilding. But in no case is it due to the nature of balanced decks.
I guess there are pros and cons to any strategy though and then there is the draw factor.
And this season, balance has more pros than speed, provided it's well-constructed. The draw factor can be minimized in any deck now, causing speed to lose some more of its edge.
WIth that being said I think I am going to try a balanced decks out again. First of all they are more fun to play and secondly I think my brain needs a break from the mind numbing simplicity of speed.
One of the reasons speed is so popular; a trained chimp could play it as well as the best Redemption player. Last season, Abom had as much potential as speed, TGT, what-have-you, but few people used it because it's FAR more difficult to build, and even more difficult to play.
-
One of the reasons speed is so popular; a trained chimp could play it as well as the best Redemption player. Last season, Abom had as much potential as speed, TGT, what-have-you, but few people used it because it's FAR more difficult to build, and even more difficult to play.
That's really not at all fair. That's like saying people include dominants because they're too lazy to use enhancements to get rid of stuff.
I actually enjoy my TGT deck, and I'm certainly not a "trained chimp".
-
TGT=! speed. I'm sure your offense is nearly mono-white and there's a functioning defense. I use TGT myself in two of my decks. None of my decks are speed.
-
TGT=! speed. I'm sure your offense is nearly mono-white and there's a functioning defense. I use TGT myself in two of my decks. None of my decks are speed.
Sorry, I should have specified "TGT Speed" deck. My defense consists of evil dominants and 5 ECs, nothing more. Yes my offense is mostly white, but there's purple as well (and one each of gold and green), and it has lots of drawing.
My point is that I have a speed deck because it's fun to play, not because I'm too dumb to make an Abom deck. If I had the Greeks and other cards necessary for an Abom deck, I'd be perfectly willing to try it.
-
Well, kind of but not really. Unknown Nation, Site Guard LS, and Gates of Hell were the only real counters to the guaranteed rescues until this set, and even those couldn't be used if TGT was in effect.
You could also factor in the tgt stoppers, since tgt and speed go hand in hand. And on paper they worked, but when you got into tournament season tgt was still potent.
Now, you still have all that plus Golgotha to stop TGT, more LS's that hide themselves or others, HT to potentially stop up to 3 rescues (and with most speed decks, if you stop just one they can't win), many, many more blocks that don't even give them the chance to play a "guaranteed rescue" card, Nazareth to stop their tutoring, etc. In other words, there have been a few counters and a few checks before, but now there are plethora counters that aren't dead cards against non-speed. Even one of the best checks, RBD, is more usable now that Balaam can no-cost instant recur it.
I think you are putting to much faith into these counters. Nazareth stops tutoring, yes, but it also prevents you from doing the same thing. In a balanced deck isn't it all the more important to search for what you need? Golgotha is solid but can run into trouble when facing teal tomb or a rogue land dispute, and RBD is a joke. I really don't see how this makes a plethora of Tgt/speed stoppers.
Furthermore, with the massive proliferation of Sites, you only need to draw any counter before your opponent draws their big guns and access (since speed offenses will not have organic site access).
That is assuming that people want to take up 3 or 4 deck slots with sites (depending on the defense this may be necessary and beneficial) that will inevitable clog your draw and take away from your offense and defense. IMO this doesn't seems like a very realistic expectation. I would see no problem with adding two of the new sites to a blanced deck (even then I am a little reluctant because again it detracts from the offense and can clog), however, but this is certainly not enough to really stall a speed deck.
If it happens occasionally, that's just how it goes sometimes. If it happens consistently, that's bad deckbuilding. But in no case is it due to the nature of balanced decks.
How is this not due to the nature of balanced decks? A balanced defense needs considerably more time to set up than a more efficient splash defense, thus potentially leaving itself open for speed. And similary the offense in a balanced deck can have trouble setting up in time to keep up with speed, since most of these offense find themselves susceptable to splash defenses do to lack of card flow. Those situations can come across quite frequently regardless of bad deck building.
Last season, Abom had as much potential as speed, TGT, what-have-you, but few people used it because it's FAR more difficult to build, and even more difficult to play.
I think the main reason that people didn't use Abom is because historically defensive heavy decks haven't had all that much success.
-
RBD is a joke.
Underestimated. Ask anyone who has been hit with this card and First Fruits. Also Im sure youll see plenty of Disciple Decks this tournament season (the new face of speed,I might add), and this card wrecks them. I feel the same way about Darius Decree.
Nazareth stops tutoring, yes, but it also prevents you from doing the same thing.
Unless you add it to battle. Just sayin. But I love me some philies soo...oh yea and it stops Susanna. I wonder how many of those youll see this year? actually what does it not stop? this card just kills and your right when you say everyone. Amslave, UN, CaptArk...birthfortold. thats why i love faith as a mustard seed. it seems the more i play with this card the more i like it, so versatile
-
You could also factor in the tgt stoppers, since tgt and speed go hand in hand. And on paper they worked, but when you got into tournament season tgt was still potent.
On paper they didn't work. Almost all of the stoppers you still had to block. There was like, what, one card that made a king CBI?
I think you are putting to much faith into these counters. Nazareth stops tutoring, yes, but it also prevents you from doing the same thing. In a balanced deck isn't it all the more important to search for what you need? Golgotha is solid but can run into trouble when facing teal tomb or a rogue land dispute, and RBD is a joke. I really don't see how this makes a plethora of Tgt/speed stoppers.
No, actually. A well-constructed balanced deck will be a deck of multi-use components, and any one card won't be essential at any one time. Speed gets hurt WAY more by a lack of tutoring and losing all avenues of soul creation other than SWJ. Land Dispute is a potential problem if you don't have CP out, but then, to get Land Dispute you need to draw two cards away from your offense and have them both at the same time. The new sites are also TGT stoppers by making territory destruction WAY harder. If you want to AoCP or WaS my Pharisees, you have to Discard a Fortress and a Site that can only be targeted by Sword and Trumpet, and to capture me you have to get rid of two Sites.
You underestimate RBD and you REALLY underestimate Herod's Temple.
That is assuming that people want to take up 3 or 4 deck slots with sites (depending on the defense this may be necessary and beneficial) that will inevitable clog your draw and take away from your offense and defense. IMO this doesn't seems like a very realistic expectation. I would see no problem with adding two of the new sites to a blanced deck (even then I am a little reluctant because again it detracts from the offense and can clog), however, but this is certainly not enough to really stall a speed deck.
Well, all the best defenses this year are NT and will benefit from 4-5 Sites anyway. It's a far cry from inevitable, and it's not even a clog since you can just play them down. They don't take away from your defense because they're part of your defense and they don't take away from your offense if you budget your deck properly and view them as part of the defensive slots. And it most certainly is enough to stall a speed deck. With Nazareth stopping almost all forms of soul generation, and an extra TWO self- or other-hiding souls, speed can suffer a turn or three with no way to get a soul. That means death.
How is this not due to the nature of balanced decks? A balanced defense needs considerably more time to set up than a more efficient splash defense, thus potentially leaving itself open for speed. And similary the offense in a balanced deck can have trouble setting up in time to keep up with speed, since most of these offense find themselves susceptable to splash defenses do to lack of card flow. Those situations can come across quite frequently regardless of bad deck building.
Well, no, actually, it doesn't. And splash defenses are more efficient because they're less reliable. The big guys are next to useless this year. Every brigade got at least one, often more silver bullets against Claudius, PotW, KoT, and Red Dragon. That's the lion's share of a splash defense. This also answers the question of setting up on speed. It's not hard to do when almost your entire offense walks right past splash guys with no support. You seem to be under an impression a balanced deck can't also be fast. I've played SO many offense-heavy to true Speed offenses this year with balanced decks and decked out at the same time as them, give or take a few turns either way. If I hadn't won already.
I think the main reason that people didn't use Abom is because historically defensive heavy decks haven't had all that much success.
A properly constructed Abom deck will NOT be defense-heavy, but offense-heavy. Nearly as fast as Speed.
*limit break*
-
You have to look at the whole picture here. Yes, any one point I make can be answered somewhat satisfactorily. But all of the points at once in a cohesive argument cannot. Look at the problems with speed as a list:
Can face multiple turns with no available Lost Souls.
Can have nearly all of it's "guaranteed rescues" stopped.
Can end up giving a Soul every turn to a normal offense.
Can more easily lose an essential card to more prevalent deck discard.
Can get locked out by just Creeping Deceiver.
Will every single one of these things happen every game? No. Will any of these things happen every game? No. Will a speed deck probably lose if any one of these things happens? Yes. Will at least one of these things happen in at least two games in a tournament? Probably.
Speed is still usable. But now, it's playing against the odds rather than strongly with them like it had for years. With a speed deck, you have a very few essential cards, and a very few ways of rescuing a soul. If you lose even one of those cards or have one of your rescues stopped (often by Herod's Temple), you're in big trouble because your defense can't handle a balanced offense. Speed decks will still win, and maybe even have a winning record, as the 3 and out game is still a very real chance. But now, it's a chance with slim odds.
*EDIT*
My point is that I have a speed deck because it's fun to play, not because I'm too dumb to make an Abom deck. If I had the Greeks and other cards necessary for an Abom deck, I'd be perfectly willing to try it.
I'm not saying the only reason anyone would play a speed deck is that they can't play another deck effectively. I'm saying anyone can play a speed deck, so those who want to win and can't play a different winning deck all play speed. And yes, I am saying speed takes no skill to play, but I'm sure you know that. Don't misconstrue that and infer I am saying only those with no skill play speed.
-
On paper they didn't work. Almost all of the stoppers you still had to block. There was like, what, one card that made a king CBI?
Land dispute, Destructive sin, and Image of Jealousy don't require you to block.
Speed gets hurt WAY more by a lack of tutoring and losing all avenues of soul creation other than SWJ.
I doubt most people will use Nazereth all that much in type 1 though, either because they want to search themselves or because it isn't an essential card. Furthermore 4-5 site in every defense takes away alot of other options. It seems like this would take away alot of blocking options. I was putting together a defense last night and I had a hard enough time fitting in two of the new sites.
You underestimate RBD and you REALLY underestimate Herod's Temple.
I have never seen Rain Becomes Dust played against me in a type 1 two player game, frankly the artifact slot can be put to better use.
The problem with Herod's Temple is that you are dumping a lot of cards of the top of your deck, cards that really can't be replaced. I don't deny that it is a pesky and is really useful against speed but I think 3 blocks a game is an unrealistic expectation. But I really haven't had much experience playing with it or against it like you have so I will digress and take your word for it. This January I am going to be playing in Root so hopefully I can then experience it first hand.
-
Land dispute, Destructive sin, and Image of Jealousy don't require you to block.
Of these, Land Dispute doesn't work because they'll have a DR or NJ padding the TGT, and DS doesn't work because whatever Hero you put it on they can just run into battle and either win and get a Soul or lose at no more DS. IoJ works, but that's one counter that is itself not that difficult to get rid of.
I doubt most people will use Nazereth all that much in type 1 though, either because they want to search themselves or because it isn't an essential card.
The question is whether balanced decks are equally or more viable than Speed. If you're building a good balanced deck, you'll usually want to include Nazareth. If you're addicted to searching, that's your problem; continue playing Speed.
It seems like this would take away alot of blocking options.
A lot of your arguments are in the vein of "it seems" or "I assume" or some such. I've played with a balanced deck since Di came out and my KDR is like 29. I'll take my observations and experience over anyone else's speculation any day.
I was putting together a defense last night and I had a hard enough time fitting in two of the new sites.
Then either your offense was too big, your defense was too spread out, or your deck was too full of fluff.
This January I am going to be playing in Root so hopefully I can then experience it first hand.
Looking forward to it.
-
I've played with a balanced deck since Di came out and my KDR is like 29
Kill to death ratio? What does that even mean in Redemption.
If you're addicted to searching, that's your problem; continue playing Speed.
The Office- Season 4- Michael- Sue Me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lppTJFYigoU#ws)
-
A lot of your arguments are in the vein of "it seems" or "I assume" or some such. I've played with a balanced deck since Di came out and my KDR is like 29. I'll take my observations and experience over anyone else's speculation any day.
then you must have played at least 58 games, as i know i served your herod deck a couple losses to my speed. :)
hobbit is right though, you have to be careful when dealing with the new di sites. none of them offer any outright defensive stops so already they could become negative deck space under some circumstances, and decking all 5 is very risky and dangerous in a normal type 1 deck. there are really only two which should be staple for a balanced type 1 nt defense deck, and the others are completely optional depending on how the deck is structured. it also doesnt help that the only viable defense to take advantage of the sites are herods, and even that comes up short to the standards set by other powerhouse ot defenses.
-
Herods, Pharisees, Heretics, and Magicians all benefit from the new sites. The first three are all on the level of "powerhouse OT Civilizations" (which really means Brown). And I have played over 60 games with a finished deck and lost twice. I have lost a few more times when developing decks, but even then I win way more than I lose.
-
phars and heretics are nowhere on the level of the ot powerhouses...they dont have anywhere near as much support as babs, phillies, egyptians, assyrians or persians (or brown in general). im surprised to see heretics even in the running considering they just broke ground in di and with very little support (and what support they got it actually came in anti-meta with exactly zero thematic enhancement battle winners).
however, i did fail to mention emperors that also benefit greatly from ht. they have proven viable in the past obviously, and could be even more potent now due to the extra support emps, romans, and grey in general got in di.
-
Whether or not something has support is one thing, whether or not it's good is another. Phars are easily better than all the civilizations you listed, and Heretics are better than most of them. And I, too, forgot about Romans, who kick so much butt it's unfair.
-
more support equals more options available to the theme, which in turn equals more potential and viability in the meta. phars have been largely untouched for...ever. jah? yay, dou has been doing it and far better for years. hpp? almost every single evil ot theme fort is easily more powerful. and heretics cant even stand on its own yet. its just currently the flavor of the month, then will be largely forgotten unless it gets more support in the next set. just like phars.
-
Haha, have you even played a Pharisee defense? It's one of the fastest defenses out there, and Scribe, Entrapping Pharisee, and Proud Pharisee are three of the best EC's in the entire game. OT Prot fortresses better? Nope. None of them can hold UW. Furthermore, Phars and Sads are the only defense in the GAME to get redundant protection. Sword and Trumpet will wipe out almost any other defense single-handedly, but not this one. DoU better than JaH? Well, yes, but the rest of PG is pretty bad and you need Horses to play it pre-response. With Phars all you need is a character.
Now, I will admit, Pharisees truly shine when your deck is cohesive. Without Abraham's Decedent, my Phars defense would be weaker than it is. And without two feasts and a Provisions on offense, I'd have a harder time setting it up. But card-for-card, you get the most bang for your buck with the defenses that utilize Sites, with Brown maybe slightly stronger sometimes.