Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I'm sure the cards of the new set have already been decided on, but I'd like to make an impassioned plea to stop this “Cannot be Negated” (CBN) nonsense.  I want to run down what I perceive as the problems that caused this, and perhaps you may see why I say this, and why I feel that CBN hurts the game.

I have only been playing for a little over 2 years now, but if I understand my Redemption history right it was the Warriors set that revolutionized the game.  It was a huge set with some CLEARLY SUPERIOR cards from anything that preceded it.  And in this set there were a LOT of "Fight by the Numbers" (FBTN) characters, and perhaps enhancements too.  Again if I understand the history right, FBTN became nigh unstoppable, especially coupled with big number rainbow enhancements.  The massive 10/12 FBTN King of Tyrus also came out in Warriors, so smaller heroes didn't stand much of a chance unless they had Angel of the Lord in hand.  Now I do not know how many CBN or CBI cards existed at the time of Warriors (Michael is the only one that comes to mind), but I think that that most of them we have today came out AFTER Warriors.

It seems to me that CBN and CBI cards were made as a direct response to all the FBTN characters that were introduced in Warriors.  What's odd is that if Cactus knew these cards were too powerful, I'm not sure why they decided to reprint most of them in WC versions in Kings.  In fact Kings might have made it worse for defense by making FBTN banding chains.  But in hindsight, were CBN characters and enhancements the right way to respond to the FBTN problem?

1)   Even in Warriors, there WERE ways to beat a FBTN character.  USE A BIGGER CHARACTER WITH BIG NUMBER ENHANCEMENTS!  It seems the problem was that people wanted initiative so much that they would not always have big number characters and enhancements in their decks to counter this.  But when I first started playing two years ago, I was immediately advised by the community to always put a good mix of small number characters and big number characters into my decks, because of FBTN.
2)   There were/are Artifacts.  Now I know that just one artifact (Holy of Holies) was not sufficient, but this powerful artifact certainly helped.  Golden Calf negates the abilities of all the FBTN heroes except TSA, and Asherah Pole also stops all except TSA.  Priests introduced Confusion of Mind, another great way to at least slow down FBTN.  Holy Grail, Ark of the Covenant, Three Nails, Jepthah etc help with Evil Characters.  Of course, creating easy artifact removal with Captured Ark and Destruction of Nehushtan may not have helped things either.

But now we have so many “Cannot be negated” characters AND enhancements, that it seems to be all that people want to use (especially in Type 2 from what I have heard).  Here are the problems with this, at the tournament level:

1)   Battles are now boring and predictable.  If I see an offense with Phinehas and Joshua the HP in it, and they finally make a rescue attempt, why even block?  They’re just going to interrupt it with Zeal or any other interrupt that Joshua wants to play.  
2)   These CBN cards which were meant to combat FBTN, don’t specify “If in a FBTN battle…”.  Thus they become overpowered because they can be used in ANY battle.
3)   Decks begin to look the same.  They already look the same because of FBTN characters, with KOT, Moses and COTH seeming to be in every other tournament deck.  Then we make them look even more the same with CBN cards.
4)   MOST IMPORTANTLY (in my opinion), they make other negate and interrupt cards practically WORTHLESS.  I love putting a ton of interrupt and negate cards in my decks, and in tournaments they don’t get used at all because what I want to interrupt CANNOT be interrupted.

What I’d like to see:

1)    Far less CBN stuff on the side of GOOD.  The game is too weighted toward good as it is.  I feel there is also too much CBN stuff on the side of bad, especially in Type 2 (where you can have 5 of each CBN card!), but defense needs a little boost.
2)   More cards that allow CBN status in combo with other cards.  I don’t have a problem with Abel’s Sacrifice (except maybe in Type 2), Faith in Our High Priest, having to convert Saul to Paul, etc, because these require COMBINATIONS of various cards.  But just one card that says CBN all by itself just seems overboard.
3)   I would like to see ways to remove/discard something that says “Cannot be Negated” on it.  I just submitted a new Curse in card ideas called “Bringing Down the Proud” that is sort of what I had in mind.  I am NOT suggesting that we find ways to negate a CBN card, as this is ridiculous, but if we could make cards that give someone a moment of pause before automatically putting those cards in their deck I think it’s a good thing.

Thanks for listening.

I'd be up for no more cbn'd stuff.  It would be great if they made some cards that would lessen the need for some of the staples that are needed in all decks.  I can understand the doms, but see'n the same cards over and over is a bit boring.

Daniel

 

However, if cards must use CBN/CBI, I would prefer it on abilities that are NOT battle winners.

that is the direction the game is going.

Lol.  This is what I just counted in the Disciples set - 13 more CANNOT BE NEGATED, 2 CANNOT BE INTERRUPTED, and 19 CANNOT BE PREVENTED.  If I did my math right, then almost 1/3 of the new set says "Cannot be" on its special ability

Now to be fair - Many (but unfortunately not all) of the cannot be negated cards are situational, which is admittedly better.  Also, "Cannot be prevented" IS the proper way to combat FBTN, so I am glad to see it being used more (But really, 19 times in one set?)

To sum up, it seems to me that Redemption is heading further down the path of lining up your CBN cards and combos.  Do I just need to throw away all my cards that say "Interrupt the Battle" or "Negate (character/enhancement) ability"?

Your thoughts?

You rant too much. Be happy that you got a new a set...dang your impossible to please.

I didn't see many cards that looked too powerful,  Cannot be negated is only a problem if the ability has a powerful ability (like AoCp did) whereas when it is added to a mediocre ability to make it a bit more useful then its not really that bad.

Like would you play with a character who says "May play enhancements of x brigade"? I probably wouldn't if that was all, but if it said "May play enhancements from x brigade. Cannot be negated." its a little more likely to see play (but still probably won't in most decks.  That shows that CBN isn't the problem, its adding CBN to already powerful cards.

I think Cactus should of made it more balanced with somehow an artifact or something that could stop FBN.

They tried. Holy of Holies and Tower being the only counters, however, is failsauce.

There was an easier way to fix all the FBN heroes: create 100 evil characters as shown below

Name:
Stats: 9001/9001
SA: Negate all special abilities on characters and enhancements. Cannot be negated.

And it's balanced, because he gets owned by Watchful Servant, and TGT... I love Rock, Pebble, Paper, Notepad, Scissors, Knife systems.

Quote from: disciple_drew on August 16, 2010, 08:10:49 PM

I think Cactus should of made it more balanced with somehow an artifact or something that could stop FBN.

They tried. Holy of Holies and Tower being the only counters, however, is failsauce.

Well, they should make more solultions.

All it cost me was two gray cards out of my hand

Well, there is the first problem. Why are you playing a Nero with gray cards in hand?

I would like to refer the readers of this thread to my new thread, which is a super long response to the general feel of this thread. have fun.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=22857.msg358516#new

down with prophets and babylonians and isrealites and zebulun and philistines!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!