Author Topic: Angels = Musicians (Read 4520 times)

Fireman789 · « **on:** August 24, 2012, 12:12:10 AM »

If it is true that if the Bible states that a character in the "good book" sang or did any kind of musical thing they can be considered a musician. The interesting one I heard was Moses In exodus 15:1that he sang. since he sang he can use the fortress musicians' chambers correct?

If that is true then I would make a case that all angels are musicians. Chapters 8-11 of Revelation depict John’s vision of angels sounding trumpets. Since they are producing music, they are musicians, correct?

and to stretch this thing just a little further. does one have to be a skilled musician to be a musician, I say no. Furthermore, does an "instrument" need to produce "music" as if to our humanly ears? I would argue that Noah was a musician of some type, not with a "musical instrument" but he used a large amount of faith to play that hammer to build a boat where there was no water.

do you think all of these characters and more should be able to use the fortress Musicians' Chambers?

Chris · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:28:00 AM »

Anyone can sing. That does not make them a musician. Miriam for instance, is considered a musician because she composed a song (at least, that's my understanding). Likewise, John did not necessarily see every single angel sounding trumpets, so it's horrible logic to assume that that is what took place.

I'm not even touching Noah. No.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:40:25 AM »

Redemption's definition of musician is approximately:

A person who wrote songs, or led people in singing/playing instruments.

Thus Miriam is a musician because of the Song of Miriam, Moses is a musician because of Psalm 90 (or is it 91? I always get those confused). David wrote a bunch of Psalms, Solomon wrote Song of Solomon, and Deborah wrote a song as well; thusly they are all musicians.

No Angels are musicians because while they sometimes are described as singing, only the lead Angel would be considered the musician. The definition of instrument is not quite liberal enough to allow for hammering to be considered music.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:43:33 AM »

Simply singing doesn't make one a musician.

Basically to be a musician a character has to have done one of the following
a) Play music on a musical instrument (blasting a trumpet as an alarm doesn't count)
b) Write a song of some kind
c) Be a professional singer (such as Chenaniah)
d) Be called a musician in the Bible (or other documentation that is deemed accurate)

I would also suggest that if a card like Angelic Chorus were printed, even though technically it may not qualify (we don't know whether or not they are professional singing angels or just regular singing angels) it probably would be because it is a chorus.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:44:47 AM »

That is not actually the definition that Redemption uses.

Quote

Musicians include anyone who wrote/lead songs.

Moses wrote a hymn and Miriam lead the Isrealites in singing. Just singing or playing does not qualify. the current list:

[/quote](Good): Asaph (Pi), Barak (Pa), Chenaniah (RA), David (Green) (Ki)*, David (Green) (Wa), David (Red) (Ki)*, David (Red) (Wa), Deborah (AL), Deborah (AU), Deborah (L), Deborah (UL), Ethan (Pi), Heman (Pi), Jeiel (RA), King David (P), King Solomon (P), King Solomon (TP), Miriam (AL), Miriam (AU), Miriam (CL), Miriam (CU), Miriam (G), Miriam (L), Miriam (UL), Moses (G), Moses (Pr), and Moses (Wa)
[/quote]

I think there are a couple more that should be added but not the ones you mentioned.

instaposted

megamanlan · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2012, 03:41:24 PM »

Quote from: Fireman789 on August 24, 2012, 12:12:10 AM

If it is true that if the Bible states that a character in the "good book" sang or did any kind of musical thing they can be considered a musician. The interesting one I heard was Moses In exodus 15:1that he sang. since he sang he can use the fortress musicians' chambers correct?

If that is true then I would make a case that all angels are musicians. Chapters 8-11 of Revelation depict John’s vision of angels sounding trumpets. Since they are producing music, they are musicians, correct?

and to stretch this thing just a little further. does one have to be a skilled musician to be a musician, I say no. Furthermore, does an "instrument" need to produce "music" as if to our humanly ears? I would argue that Noah was a musician of some type, not with a "musical instrument" but he used a large amount of faith to play that hammer to build a boat where there was no water.

do you think all of these characters and more should be able to use the fortress Musicians' Chambers?

Under the biblical definition, Sounding a trumpet then wasn't involved in Music, but for declarations. So they are not Musicians. If anything they may more be judges then Musicians (not that they are either) but there are Angel Musicians in Revelation, they just wouldn't be one of them.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2012, 07:29:20 PM »

Drummers don't count as musicians either.... right Pol?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2012, 08:34:54 PM »

If they did, then we'd have to make every Angel that hangs out with Musicians a Musician!

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2012, 10:12:06 PM »

moses... Awesome!!!!

megamanlan · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2012, 07:08:16 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on August 24, 2012, 12:44:47 AM

That is not actually the definition that Redemption uses.

Quote
Musicians include anyone who wrote/lead songs.

Moses wrote a hymn and Miriam lead the Isrealites in singing. Just singing or playing does not qualify. the current list:

(Good): Asaph (Pi), Barak (Pa), Chenaniah (RA), David (Green) (Ki)*, David (Green) (Wa), David (Red) (Ki)*, David (Red) (Wa), Deborah (AL), Deborah (AU), Deborah (L), Deborah (UL), Ethan (Pi), Heman (Pi), Jeiel (RA), King David (P), King Solomon (P), King Solomon (TP), Miriam (AL), Miriam (AU), Miriam (CL), Miriam (CU), Miriam (G), Miriam (L), Miriam (UL), Moses (G), Moses (Pr), and Moses (Wa)
[/quote]

I think there are a couple more that should be added but not the ones you mentioned.

instaposted
[/quote]

There are a lot of People that are not on this list that are musicians in the Bible (namely Revelation) and its not if they lead a song, it's more often of how often do they sing or if they wrote a song. For instance the 4 Living Creatures of Revelation sing quite often and even though its not clear who leads it, I'd argue that they are Musicians.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** August 29, 2012, 09:27:59 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on August 29, 2012, 07:08:16 PM

There are a lot of People that are not on this list that are musicians in the Bible (namely Revelation) and its not if they lead a song, it's more often of how often do they sing or if they wrote a song. For instance the 4 Living Creatures of Revelation sing quite often and even though its not clear who leads it, I'd argue that they are Musicians.

Do they fit the following definition?

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 24, 2012, 12:40:25 AM

A person who wrote songs, or led people in singing/playing instruments.

Then they are not musicians. That's the way this term is defined. We may not agree with some definitions (I disagree with some myself), but that doesn't change how they are treated by the game. This has been fought many times, not seeing it changing from Elder response

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** August 29, 2012, 11:20:19 PM »

There are some musicians not yet on that list (most of the Prophets), but the Seraphim are not among them.

megamanlan · « **Reply #12 on:** August 31, 2012, 04:08:32 AM »

Nor are the Cherubim (aka The Four Living Creatures of Revelation) who are constantly singing.

Most do actually, I'd guess that the Angels playing the harps in Revelation were kindof leading the song and the 4 Living Creatures are constantly singing new songs to God (as John notes)

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2012, 04:19:53 AM »

Quote

I'd guess

Unfortunately, that doesn't carry enough weight to get Angels a Musician identifier in Redemption.

megamanlan · « **Reply #14 on:** August 31, 2012, 12:19:53 PM »

Yes, I don't think that all angels are Musicians but some are, just like some Humans are.

Fireman789 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2012, 07:51:21 PM »

Lucifer was the "worship leader" in heaven before he became satan and was kicked out of heaven. although there is no Lucifer card it is still interesting.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2012, 09:16:59 PM »

Quote from: Fireman789 on September 17, 2012, 07:51:21 PM

Lucifer was the "worship leader" in heaven before he became satan and was kicked out of heaven. although there is no Lucifer card it is still interesting.

*Citation needed*

Although it does sound strikingly familiar to The Silmarillion...

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2012, 12:01:25 AM »

Quote from: Westy on September 17, 2012, 09:16:59 PM

Although it does sound strikingly familiar to The Silmarillion...

Clearly makes it fact.

Fireman789 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2012, 12:42:49 AM »

Quote from: Westy on September 17, 2012, 09:16:59 PM

Quote from: Fireman789 on September 17, 2012, 07:51:21 PM
Lucifer was the "worship leader" in heaven before he became satan and was kicked out of heaven. although there is no Lucifer card it is still interesting.
*Citation needed*

Although it does sound strikingly familiar to The Silmarillion...

Ezekiel 28:13
"You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created."

He was made with instruments "built-in" timbrels are also known as tambourines and pipes were likely an organ.

the bible does not come out completely to say that he was the worship leader (among other duties he had). why else would he be made with instruments and be the top angel in heaven?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** September 18, 2012, 10:52:14 AM »

Instrument-makers are cool?

News:

Author Topic: Angels = Musicians (Read 4520 times)

Chris

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk