Author Topic: Just when I thought... (Read 28613 times)

LukeChips · « **Reply #50 on:** January 24, 2015, 09:29:33 AM »

Coaches are sometime too serious about their game!

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #51 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:05:12 PM »

Poll question for today...

How do you prefer your balls (from the Tom Brady press conference)?

Round
Thin
Tacky
Brand new
Old

Quote from: Chris on January 23, 2015, 04:35:54 PM

If the Colts started towards the top end of that range, it is possible that while all of the balls deflated due to an external factor, only the Patriots' balls actually ended up under the legal limit.

Just for my own curiosity what do you think this external factor would be? Can you also explain why this external factor did not effect the Patriots' balls in the second half? (According to reports the balls were re-inflated and checked by refs at half time to and rechecked for legality at the end of the game--passing both times).

LukeChips · « **Reply #52 on:** January 25, 2015, 04:11:23 PM »

1. Round

Chris · « **Reply #53 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:13:17 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 25, 2015, 12:05:12 PM

Quote from: Chris on January 23, 2015, 04:35:54 PM
If the Colts started towards the top end of that range, it is possible that while all of the balls deflated due to an external factor, only the Patriots' balls actually ended up under the legal limit.
Just for my own curiosity what do you think this external factor would be? Can you also explain why this external factor did not effect the Patriots' balls in the second half? (According to reports the balls were re-inflated and checked by refs at half time to and rechecked for legality at the end of the game--passing both times).

One possible option is that the balls were inflated in a much warmer area, and then deflated after being exposed to the relatively cold weather. Most of the speculation surrounding this idea is based on a sauna or something similar, but it's possible that a locker room could result in the same effect; it might have just been a freak thing. It's also possible the balls were never properly checked and were always under-inflated, and the officials just didn't do their job properly. To me, that actually seems like the most likely option, since the balls stay with the officials until they are given to the team, where they are left outside in front of cameras, fans, and the officials. If someone tampered with the balls after inspection, it was done in front of millions of people. Regardless, if that is not the case and it was weather related, the answer to your second question is that the balls were left outside for a much shorter duration during the second half than they were before and during the first half, which could explain the discrepency. They also have may be filled higher than the minimum 12.5 PSI, since the officials are the ones that reinflated them during the half.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #54 on:** January 26, 2015, 08:28:29 AM »

So you do not find it suspicious that they inflate their game balls in a sauna?

Or is really that much hotter in the Patriots locker room than the Colts' locker room?

LukeChips · « **Reply #55 on:** January 26, 2015, 08:59:10 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 26, 2015, 08:28:29 AM

So you do not find it suspicious that they inflate their game balls in a sauna?

Or is really that much hotter in the Patriots locker room than the Colts' locker room?

Sneaky, sneaky. They sure earned a bad reputation for themselves!

Chris · « **Reply #56 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:03:35 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 26, 2015, 08:28:29 AM

So you do not find it suspicious that they inflate their game balls in a sauna?

Or is really that much hotter in the Patriots locker room than the Colts' locker room?

Belichick has formally denied that they inflate their balls in a sauna, but even if they had, there's nothing in the rules that prohibits that. Again, if the Colts had their balls inflated closer to 13.5 PSI and the Patriots had theirs closer to 12.5 PSI, it would explain why the Colts' balls were legal while the Patriots' weren't.

Quote from: LukeChips on January 26, 2015, 08:59:10 AM

Sneaky, sneaky. They sure earned a bad reputation for themselves!

Doing what, specifically? There is still zero evidence of wrongdoing, and even the report that 11 out of 12 balls were under-inflated isn't actually confirmed by the NFL. If you think they're cheating, explain specifically why. Right now it just sounds like you're hating them because that's what's popular to do.

LukeChips · « **Reply #57 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:25:23 PM »

The patriots are the most istrusted team up to date according to MSN, they have found cheating or bending the rules before.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #58 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:51:50 PM »

Chris, Chris, chris, ever for the underdog, ever for opposite side of popularity, ever the hipster, ever the fully engrained football fan. I bet your arguing for YEC on hearthstone forums right now.

In a little more serious nature,

When we are talking about spy gate the circumstances and testimonies against them look terrible and there was enough evidence to strip picks for that. (Everyone else is doing it didn't work in 2nd grade when I lost recess time for talking in class. I don't see why it works here.)

Deflategate is another situation where expert opinions and circumstances look really fishy for the patriots.

A couple things I'd like to know
1. Did the balls for Tom Brady not feel different because he has been using under inflated balls for years, or this year at least?
2. If the colts had a higher PSI by a full pound at the start of the game (this is your speculation, the NFL has not confirmed this) and the balls deflated approximately equally. why is there now a 2lbs discrepancy?
3. If the colts balls where inflated to 13.5 and the patriots to 12.5 wouldnt the increased psi on the colts mean an increased deflation speed? Wouldnt that close the 1 psi descrepency rather than enlarge it?

LukeChips · « **Reply #59 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:56:23 PM »

The only reason I didn't want the seahawks to win was because they won last year, I like to see new people win every year, but I also don't like cheaters!

Chris · « **Reply #60 on:** January 26, 2015, 02:39:16 PM »

Quote

1. Did the balls for Tom Brady not feel different because he has been using under inflated balls for years, or this year at least?

Inflate a football to 12.5 PSI, then deflate it to 11.5 PSI and feel the difference. The impact of that small a change is fairly minimal. Throw in the fact that adrenalin would be running high and Brady doesn't play with a glove on his throwing hand (meaning it would be cold and possibly numb) and there's no real reason to think that Brady claiming he didn't feel a difference would condemn him. It is well within the bounds of plausibility that he just didn't notice, especially given the fact that the officials didn't notice either. Suggesting he has been using under-inflated balls for years has no real place in this discussion, since it's completely baseless speculation unless someone with legitimacy comes out and claims that it's true.

Quote

2. If the colts had a higher PSI by a full pound at the start of the game (this is your speculation, the NFL has not confirmed this) and the balls deflated approximately equally. why is there now a 2lbs discrepancy?

11 out of the 12 balls being under-inflated is technically speculation as well, since the NFL hasn't confirmed that either. In fact, there are now conflicting reports that suggest only one ball was under-inflated, or a more recent report that ten of the Patriots' balls were only under-inflated by one pound. Most people condemning the Patriots are basing their assertion on the most damning of the reports, but others out there aren't nearly as bad. In fact, the initial report itself was clearly missing information, unless every single ball was under-inflated by exactly 2 PSI.

Quote

3. If the colts balls where inflated to 13.5 and the patriots to 12.5 wouldnt the increased psi on the colts mean an increased deflation speed? Wouldnt that close the 1 psi descrepency rather than enlarge it?

I don't know enough to formally dispute this claim, but I sincerely doubt it. Unless one of us can provide sources proving it one way or the other, this is kind of a wash right now.

_JM_ · « **Reply #61 on:** January 26, 2015, 02:54:46 PM »

Article with some more details.

Relevant section that helps highlight the need not to rush to judgment when the only facts are more like rumors. Emphasis mine.

Quote

But what has the NFL really found? As one league source has explained it to PFT, the football intercepted by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson was roughly two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum. The other 10 balls that reportedly were two pounds under may have been, as the source explained it, closer to one pound below 12.5 PSI.

The NFL has yet to share specific information regarding the PSI measurements of the balls that were confiscated and measured at halftime. Which has allowed the perception of cheating to linger, fueled by the confirmation from Friday that the NFL found underinflated balls, but that the NFL still doesn’t know how they came to be that way.

“The goals of the investigation will be to determine the explanation for why footballs used in the game were not in compliance with the playing rules and specifically whether any noncompliance was the result of deliberate action,” the league said. “We have not made any judgments on these points and will not do so until we have concluded our investigation and considered all of the relevant evidence.”

It's also important to remember, as Chris just pointed out, that there is not much difference at all between a ball that is inflated to 10.5-11.0 PSI and a ball at 12.5 PSI. The rules regarding air pressure in the ball are in place 1) because there needs to be a standard definition for balls to conform to and 2) narrower range is better to ensure that footballs are generally consistent.

I still don't understand why this is such a huge deal. At worst, it's pushing the envelope in a way that seems pretty acceptable in the football culture.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #62 on:** January 26, 2015, 03:01:46 PM »

I feel like a QB, whose job it is (paid millions) to throw a football would be very aware of a ball and how comfortable it feels to him. Aaron Rodgers clearly likes his balls inflated to the highest limit due to his large hand size it's his prefernce. 80 and sunny or 30 and windy is an excuse not a reason. My suggestion has some level of credibility. Look at Tom Brady's life Cowherd spoke weeks ago about
The greatness of Tom Brady and his number 1 reason was consistency. "The guys has a daily itinerary for his vacations." 8 am get up 8:30 breakfast, 9:00 get packed and ready to go to the beach, 10-12 sun bath and nap, 12-1 lunch at the cabana, 1-2 get in the water, 2-4 nap on the beach ect ect ect to expect him not to notice a difference by more then my opinion is absurd.

@_JM_

Everyone else is doing is not a legit answer.
Pushing the envelope is not legal in the NFL and it's not about the one game. It's about what it represents for the Patriots brand, Bellicheck, Brady and Kraft. 2 times now publicly exposed the fear is that they have a culture in fox borough, a culture of "pushing the envelope."

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #63 on:** January 26, 2015, 03:16:56 PM »

Quote from: Chris on January 26, 2015, 02:39:16 PM

Quote
1. Did the balls for Tom Brady not feel different because he has been using under inflated balls for years, or this year at least?

Inflate a football to 12.5 PSI, then deflate it to 11.5 PSI and feel the difference. The impact of that small a change is fairly minimal.

You mean, of course 10.5 PSI--'cause the one turned in following the Colt interception was 2 pounds under the required minimum.

Here is a video of fans doing your test.

But maybe your average folks off the street aren't the best judges. What do former players say? Here is a video of former players doing the same test.

Quote from: _JM_ on January 26, 2015, 02:54:46 PM

It's also important to remember, as Chris just pointed out, that there is not much difference at all between a ball that is inflated to 10.5-11.0 PSI and a ball at 12.5 PSI.

Well, I know Chris has claimed that repeatedly, but both fans and former players disagree. So maybe it is not so important to remember that.

Chris · « **Reply #64 on:** January 26, 2015, 04:16:05 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 26, 2015, 03:16:56 PM

You mean, of course 10.5 PSI--'cause the one turned in following the Colt interception was 2 pounds under the required minimum.

Unless you have a statement from the NFL confirming that, you can't really claim that as a fact. There are conflicting reports on how many balls were under-inflated and just how under-inflated they were.

Quote

Here is a video of fans doing your test.

So just what was the difference between those two balls? The video never says. Moreover, how many people said they could tell the difference and how many said they couldn't? Without this information, that video is next to meaningless. Even with that video, the fact that random people are being handed those balls on the street as opposed to in the AFC Championship Game means the results don't really properly measure what they're supposed to.

Quote

But maybe your average folks off the street aren't the best judges. What do former players say? Here is a video of former players doing the same test.

This video is even worse. The under-inflated ball they were given was at 10 PSI. Nobody is claiming that the Patriots' balls were at 10 PSI, and of course it's going to feel different when it's a change of 2.5 PSI. Plus, again, these players are being asked to measure that in the middle of a TV studio, and they're given ample time to anticipate the difference. This test is not really measuring anything particularly significant to the AFC Championship Game because it's an entirely different set of circumstances.

I don't mean for this to sound like a personal attack, but I honestly better arguments from you. I know you can argue well and back up your side with strong evidence; I've seen you do it for years. I'm genuinely surprised you're trying to use those videos as proof of anything.

LukeChips · « **Reply #65 on:** January 26, 2015, 04:22:27 PM »

There is no real Proof out there, everything is opinionated and assumed.

_JM_ · « **Reply #66 on:** January 26, 2015, 04:25:47 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on January 26, 2015, 03:01:46 PM

@_JM_

Everyone else is doing is not a legit answer.
Pushing the envelope is not legal in the NFL and it's not about the one game. It's about what it represents for the Patriots brand, Bellicheck, Brady and Kraft. 2 times now publicly exposed the fear is that they have a culture in fox borough, a culture of "pushing the envelope."

Note that I'm not saying this is something not to be punished. Rulebook states what PSI footballs should be inflated to, it appears that at least one of the footballs the Patriots supplied for the game was outside of that range during the game. So yeah, (alleged) illegal action, punishment (likely) to follow, cool.

Rather, my question is why are people making such a huge fuss over this? The vitriol and angst in a lot of what I've read (not just here) seems wildly disproportionate to the actual alleged crime. Reminder: it still hasn't been shown that the Patriots organization intentionally presented improperly inflated footballs, or if a member of the Patriots organization took action to make any footballs improperly inflated after the official check - the most anyone can claim from investigation leaks is that at least one football was most likely under-inflated at some point during the first half. Nothing has been proven regarding intentionality, which is critical if we're going to tarnish the Patriots brand with the "cheaters" label.

And as much as I'd love to, I can't jump on the "Darth Belichick and Evil Tom Brady are dirty rotten cheaters" bandwagon until there's, you know, actual proof that they acted nefariously and that this wasn't just a mix-up in process or some other set of circumstances that contradicts the sleazy cheaters story line.

Also note that I didn't say "everyone else is doing it" - I said that pushing the envelope in the area of football PSI seems to be acceptable in the football culture. Pretty much all of the lynch mob talk has come from sports media, while those actually affected by these actions (current coaches/players) aren't coming out in mass condemnation of the Patriots. Just because something is acceptable doesn't mean that everybody engages in that something. For instance (already brought up in this thread), driving 5-10 mph over the speed limit. Culturally acceptable, not everybody does it, and if law enforcement decides it's worth the effort, you'll get punished for it. Same thing seems to be happening here.

Chris · « **Reply #67 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:00:33 PM »

Literally anyone in this topic who is condemning the Patriots for this right now is basing every single one of their assumptions on a single report. Absolutely everything since then has speculation, with virtually anyone with any kind of authority either ignoring it or talking about how stupid it is. The only entity that stands to profit from it is the same one that started it: ESPN. If you are honestly convinced the Patriots did this intentionally at this stage, you must really not care about a little thing called "evidence," because right now, there isn't any.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #68 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:04:12 PM »

Quote from: _JM_ on January 26, 2015, 04:25:47 PM

Rather, my question is why are people making such a huge fuss over this?

As Christians, we should be making a fuss over bending and breaking rules for personal gain. Jesus did the same to the moneychangers in the temple.

As football fans, we should be making a fuss over bending and breaking rules if it may have cost my team a victory (assuming that my team did not bend/break the rules).

As Patriots fans, we should be making a fuss over bending and breaking rules it if makes our team the laughingstock of the NFL, and the team most despised (even above North Korea or the Yankees) by the rest of the country. It's one thing to not like the Patriots because they win and your team doesn't. It's a whole different ball game to not like Patriots because they have a recorded history of breaking the rules.

Quote from: Chris on January 26, 2015, 05:00:33 PM

Literally anyone in this topic who is condemning the Patriots for this right now is basing every single one of their assumptions on a single report. Absolutely everything since then has speculation, with virtually anyone with any kind of authority either ignoring it or talking about how stupid it is. The only entity that stands to profit from it is the same one that started it: ESPN. If you are honestly convinced the Patriots did this intentionally at this stage, you must really not care about a little thing called "evidence," because right now, there isn't any.

Oh, I see now.... Chris has been trolling us the whole time. Shame on me for not seeing it sooner. LOL. You got me.

Chris · « **Reply #69 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:08:07 PM »

Show me any actual real evidence of intentional wrongdoing by the Patriots.

LukeChips · « **Reply #70 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:09:18 PM »

Quote from: Chris on January 26, 2015, 05:08:07 PM

Show me any actual real evidence of intentional wrongdoing by the Patriots.

Like I said:

Quote from: LukeChips on January 26, 2015, 04:22:27 PM

There is no real Proof out there, everything is opinionated and assumed, however, those opinions are strong.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #71 on:** January 26, 2015, 06:05:15 PM »

I have a strong opinion that Jesus is real but that doesn't mean anything

jbeers285 · « **Reply #72 on:** January 26, 2015, 06:46:59 PM »

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/01/25/patriots-fumble-nearly-impossible-rate/LCgrlUR9qgxDsIgcal9dUI/story.html

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #73 on:** January 26, 2015, 09:11:50 PM »

Lost total respect for the article when it said this isn't random chance when obviously it could be random chance

jbeers285 · « **Reply #74 on:** January 27, 2015, 12:16:19 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on January 26, 2015, 09:11:50 PM

Lost total respect for the article when it said this isn't random chance when obviously it could be random chance

Statistical 0 chance leads me to feel that saying "there is no chance it's random" is ok since its mathematically accurate and acceptable as fact. The article also states it could be coaching, play selection, player selection, a new way to carry the ball that only the patriots know or the ball.

News:

Author Topic: Just when I thought... (Read 28613 times)

LukeChips

LukeChips

Chris

LukeChips

Chris

LukeChips

LukeChips

Chris

Chris

LukeChips

Chris

Chris

LukeChips