Author Topic: zebs ability ongoing? (Read 2958 times)

LordZardeck · « **on:** April 02, 2012, 01:30:29 AM »

does Zebulun's ability follow throughout battle? for example, if i have 3 cards in my hand and I ra with zeb, then my opponent blocks with a */3 character and I get to play a card from hand, do I now ignore ec's with toughness greather than */2?

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2012, 01:40:35 AM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on April 02, 2012, 01:30:29 AM

does Zebulun's ability follow throughout battle? for example, if i have 3 cards in my hand and I ra with zeb, then my opponent blocks with a */3 character and I get to play a card from hand, do I now ignore ec's with toughness greather than */2?

I believe this is the case, as ignore is indeed an ongoing ability. However, if it does re-check, then it would be subject to a current rulings question on the Elder's side of the boards, where they are trying to determine whether abilities can trigger or update in the middle of other abilities. (The example there was Iron Pan out, only Bab in play blocks and plays Banquet, no more Babs so are the LS protected? Or something like that).

So, unless they rule that ongoing abilities do recheck in the middle of abilities, you'd have to wait until that enhancement resolves (whatever it leads to). And of course, your opponent has the infinite initiative going and can interrupt the ignore if able.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2012, 02:30:23 AM »

X is a dynamic number. This has nothing to do with the other discussion.

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2012, 10:48:03 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 02, 2012, 02:30:23 AM

X is a dynamic number. This has nothing to do with the other discussion.

I understand that it is dynamic, but that means that it does have something to do with the discussion.

For example, if an ability on an evil card said "Opponent discards a card. Discard a human in battle", for example, the question is whether that dynamic number updates in the middle of an ability. Iron Pan is also dynamic, based on whether a Babylonian is in play, but they are questioning whether it can activate or shut off in the middle of another ability. Thus, it does apply.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2012, 03:55:01 PM »

Where is the X in your scenario?

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:14:16 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 02, 2012, 03:55:01 PM

Where is the X in your scenario?

"If a Babylonian is in play..." X must be >= 1.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:18:03 PM »

There are no X abilities in your example. Give me one and I'll answer it.

X is and has always been a dynamic number.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:21:20 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 02, 2012, 04:18:03 PM

There are no X abilities in your example. Give me one and I'll answer it.

X is and has always been a dynamic number.

But that's the point, it is dynamic and so is the conditional checking of Iron Pan. It only works when at least one Bab is in play, which is the very definition of dynamic. It adjusts as the situation adjusts. So does any X identifier.

They are both dynamic. They will both be dealt with in the ruling.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:22:06 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 02, 2012, 04:18:03 PM

There are no X abilities in your example. Give me one and I'll answer it.

X is and has always been a dynamic number.

That's not the argument here. We all know that X is dynamic, the question is exactly how dynamic is it? In the example that Redoubter gave (a card that says, "Opponent must discard a card; discard a human in battle"), does X update right when the discard happens, or must it wait until after the entire ability completes before it updates? The big difference between the discussion on the Elder side of the boards and what Redoubter is talking about is that Zeb's "X" is defined in the identifier, not the special ability, and I don't know whether that would be handled differently or not.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:23:09 PM »

In Redoubter's scenario, I think the "Opponent discards a card. Discard a human in battle" is supposed to played against Zeb, where it affects his X.

Using real cards - if you play Heavy Taxes against Zebulun, does the Zebulun's ignore update to reflect your new hand size before the battle ends?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:26:33 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 02, 2012, 04:14:16 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 02, 2012, 03:55:01 PM
Where is the X in your scenario?

"If a Babylonian is in play..." X must be >= 1.

I don't agree that a card that does not have "X" written on the card should be ruled by the same standards as a card that does have "X" written on the card. The former is conditional, while the latter is dynamic.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:43:17 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 02, 2012, 04:23:09 PM

In Redoubter's scenario, I think the "Opponent discards a card. Discard a human in battle" is supposed to played against Zeb, where it affects his X.

Using real cards - if you play Heavy Taxes against Zebulun, does the Zebulun's ignore update to reflect your new hand size before the battle ends?

Yes, because X is a number that is equal to whatever it points to. If that changes in the middle of other abilities, the X changes accordingly.

This is not the same as what the elders are debating.

Redoubter · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:43:58 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 02, 2012, 04:26:33 PM

The former is conditional, while the latter is dynamic.

The definition of dynamic is that it changes, and the definition of conditional is that it is dependent on another factor. Both cases can actually be defined with both words.

For a math example, if I have a result Y that is based on the number X, Y is still dependent on X. It in fact changes (unless it is a linear equation with slope 0, of course

) based on the value of X.

In the case of X in identifier, the ability Y changes (if there are 7 disciples, I protect from */7 or less, if there are 8 disciples, I protect from */8 or less) based on the value of X.

In the case of a conditional ability, think of it as a linear inequality. So, for Iron Pan, Y (the ability) only triggers when X >= 1.

Thus, since they are both dependent on another factor, the are both conditional. Since they are both changing based on other factors, they are both dynamic.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:47:39 PM »

There are no X's or Y's on Iron Pan. Both characters that are protected from a card and that ignore a card cannot be targeted by it, but that doesn't mean Protect and Ignore are the same ability. Just because you can show a way in which a scenario involving no X's could have been written with an X doesn't mean it actually functions the same.

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:53:51 PM »

The argument was made that one was conditional and one was dynamic. I disputed this and showed why both are both. I never said that there is an X printed on the card, but there is an implied check in both abilities.

Something with X in the identifier has to check on the number, and something that works only in a specific situation has to check to see if it exists. The question is when they are able to be checked. They both have to check. That's the point.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** April 02, 2012, 05:06:09 PM »

Not really, no. In the Nebuchadnezzar case, it's a question of whether a check of whether certain conditions are met can be made in between other things happening. In the case of X, it's a question of whether X=whatever number X is supposed to equal. In the example given, Heavy Taxes is played and the battle ends. You now resolve the battle. Zeb is Ignoring EC's with X or greater. X is now a different number than it was before Taxes was played. This is completely different.

Perhaps he shouldn't have said the distinction was between conditional and dynamic. The distinction is between conditions and values. Values do not have to insert themselves in between other things to change, because they simply change based on what the X is referring to. X can even mean different things in the middle of an interrupt umbrella.

For example, I play Head of Gold and capture 5 characters. You interrupt and Discard the Bab that was playing Head of Gold (Head of Gold now has an offense of 4 and is in the Discard Pile), I interrupt and band in Nebuchadnezzar to search for Belshazzar and add him to battle (Head of Gold now has an offense of 5 and is back in battle) who bands to another Bab out of hand (Head of Gold now has an offense of 6). The number of characters captured never changes because Capture is an instant ability that takes a snapshot of what X was at the time the ability activated, but the offense changed three times in between four other cards resolving.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** April 02, 2012, 05:39:44 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 02, 2012, 04:53:51 PM

I never said that there is an X printed on the card, ...

My argument had two sentences, the first of which directly addressed this.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 02, 2012, 05:06:09 PM

Perhaps he shouldn't have said the distinction was between conditional and dynamic.

I am speaking directly from the definitions that are known.

---------------------------------

By definition, a card that has "X" written on it is dynamic. A card that has "if" written in the beginning of a sentence is conditional.

Quote from: Redoubter on April 02, 2012, 04:43:58 PM

For a math example, if I have a result Y that is based on the number X, Y is still dependent on X.

This is not math class (and I should know

). This is Redemption. We have rules in place for both of these situations, since they are different.

Korunks · « **Reply #17 on:** April 02, 2012, 08:09:51 PM »

This is apples to oranges, Zebulun has been ruled as a continuous ability(ignore) that dynamically changes with the state of your hand, it does not change during another cards ability like the scenario with iron pan is trying to do. It has never been ruled to be ignoring during the ability of the enhancement you played if you played one. Similar yes, the same no.

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2012, 09:19:47 PM »

Reopening this discussion in light of the new ruling about when conditions check.

Quote from: Elder Consensus

Quote

Triggers have to wait for active special abilities to finish first. Triggered abilities are started by an instant event ("when X happens, do Y") or are manually triggered ("at any time X is true, you may do Y" abilities).

Conditions do NOT have to wait for active special abilities to finish. Conditions are always checking for an ongoing state and always result in ongoing abilities ("while X is true, give ongoing effect Y").

Card Trigger Effect Ability to insert during SAs
Unknown Nation Manual Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Gates of Samaria Automatic Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Bearing Bad News Automatic Ongoing No, never for triggered abilities
Iron Pan none Ongoing Yes, it updates constantly

Another example of an "always working" ongoing check in Redemption is X/X values on characters like Silly Women or The Angel with the Secret Name. Those Xs can change during other effects, too. They don't wait and do checks after each card completes. They are fluid.

Bolded and underlined the important part.

Zebulon's ability does fall into the same category as Iron Pan, being defined as a "continuous, ongoing, condition". Therefore, in the example I provided of a card that read "Opponent discards a card. Discard a hero in battle.", if the discard put Zebulon's X into a range that he ignored the EC, then it does update in the middle of the ability and protect him from the discard.

The new ruling states that Zebulon's ignore does update in the middle of SA.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2012, 05:22:13 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 01, 2012, 09:19:47 PM

The new ruling states that Zebulon's ignore does update in the middle of SA.

Which is what Pol was saying a month ago...

News:

Author Topic: zebs ability ongoing? (Read 2958 times)

Chronic Apathy

browarod