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Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 06, 2018, 01:58:22 AMHidden Treasures' trigger is "begins a battle", not "enters battle" - "begins a battle" is not the first Hero that enters, but is determined later, per the ruling that Rachel exchanging for Joseph results in a lone green prophet beginning the battle. That both HT and the Demon Discard LS (from Angel Wars) use "lone hero" requires the definition to be something other than the first Hero that enters battle.Why was it ruled that Joseph is considered to have begun a battle when in actuality Rachel is the one that began the battle in-question?
Hidden Treasures' trigger is "begins a battle", not "enters battle" - "begins a battle" is not the first Hero that enters, but is determined later, per the ruling that Rachel exchanging for Joseph results in a lone green prophet beginning the battle. That both HT and the Demon Discard LS (from Angel Wars) use "lone hero" requires the definition to be something other than the first Hero that enters battle.
Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 05, 2018, 04:13:33 PMAll triggers are supposed to be action-based, referred to as events in REG 5.0.Do you get SI between the withdraw and present? In general, since Goliath is CBN.Edit:I found a thread where I said that you do get SI between the withdraw and present, and Guardian agreed with me - which I still think is correct, and should mean the withdraw triggers YWR so you could add a character with the present and another with YWR. That granting SI is what would differentiate withdraw/present from CTR and exchange, which shouldn't trigger YWR.Since triggers happen on events, there's not really a way for it to still be true when you can actually use the triggered ability.How is special initiative relevant here? It really comes down to how triggers function as YWR doesn't have any abilities that operate in SI.
All triggers are supposed to be action-based, referred to as events in REG 5.0.Do you get SI between the withdraw and present? In general, since Goliath is CBN.Edit:I found a thread where I said that you do get SI between the withdraw and present, and Guardian agreed with me - which I still think is correct, and should mean the withdraw triggers YWR so you could add a character with the present and another with YWR. That granting SI is what would differentiate withdraw/present from CTR and exchange, which shouldn't trigger YWR.Since triggers happen on events, there's not really a way for it to still be true when you can actually use the triggered ability.
There's 2 possible definitions for "begins a battle":1. The first character that enters battle.2. The characters in battle after abilities have completed.We've gone with 2, since otherwise all battles are begun by lone heroes.
Special initiative is defined as something you get when your last hero is removed from battle. You technically get it when Goliath forces your characters to withdraw, but can't do anything because he's CBN. That seems like an already defined line between when your last hero is removed and when it's not.
Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 06, 2018, 02:31:24 PMThere's 2 possible definitions for "begins a battle":1. The first character that enters battle.2. The characters in battle after abilities have completed.We've gone with 2, since otherwise all battles are begun by lone heroes.Does this change Foreign Wives vs Ignore?
Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 06, 2018, 02:31:24 PMSpecial initiative is defined as something you get when your last hero is removed from battle. You technically get it when Goliath forces your characters to withdraw, but can't do anything because he's CBN. That seems like an already defined line between when your last hero is removed and when it's not.Special initiative is something you get sure, but all you get to do is play a card removing your last hero from battle. The pause is for that. Triggers should still have to wait until abilities finish to activate, because triggers are pending until abilities have completed.
Having that understanding only apply to some triggers but not all, as seems to be the case, seems to put us in a position where we have to use JM's 2 types of triggers, which is confusing because many could be either, as you pointed out earlier. I don't have a problem with either of his types - I just think we should have one or the other, not both.
I have 2 issues with that understanding:1) If the first hero entering battle is the trigger for "begins a battle", then Rachel doesn't trigger HT before exchanging for Joseph, and Joseph shouldn't trigger HT as he wasn't the first character to enter battle.2) Uzzah removing himself from battle should cause the "if blocked" triggers to fizzle.
