Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I have You Will Remain active and attack.  Opponent blocks with Goliath.  Does YWR trigger during Goliath's ability when my original hero is removed from battle and I have not yet presented a new hero?

Can't find abilities right now, will post them tomorrow if needed

Pretty sure all abilities complete before triggered abilities can even check.

Pretty sure all abilities complete before triggered abilities can even check.

Then why does a Purple King get to play off of Throne when blocked by Uzzah?   

Triggers are always checking, and when the trigger is tripped, it goes off - even mid-ability.  At that point, the triggered ability is trying to activate, it just has to wait for prior abilities to complete.

Your last Hero isn't considered removed from battle unless the completed ability would leave you with no character in battle.

By definition, my last hero is removed from battle when my last hero is removed from battle.  And this happens when Goliath withdraws all heroes.

As to your use of the word "considered", see my next argument below.

Abilities complete instantly so unless you don't add a new Hero, there is no actual period of time where the conditions for YWR are met.

I'm really glad you used this wording, because now if I can prove that a time exists where no hero is in battle, then you agree with me that YWR's conditions are met   

So if you play a hypothetical GE on a lone hero and the GE's ability is "Draw a card for each hero in battle.  Band a hero into battle.", do you draw 1 or 2?  If 1, then there exists a period of time when YWR's conditions are met when Goliath blocks.

Then why does a Purple King get to play off of Throne when blocked by Uzzah?   

If Uzzah blocks a purple King Uzzah's ability completes before Throne triggers. You still get to play after Uzzah dies because you were still blocked at one point and thus get a Throne trigger. Now you would probably say this sounds like I'm saying there exists a time between Uzzah entering battle and his ability completing which would contradict my stance on YWR. The reason it is different is because being blocked is an EC entering battle, which did happen, regardless of whether the EC is still there or not while YWR is your last Hero being removed, which did not ever happen because there was never a time that you were without a Hero in battle against Goliath.

I'm really glad you used this wording, because now if I can prove that a time exists where no hero is in battle, then you agree with me that YWR's conditions are met   

So if you play a hypothetical GE on a lone hero and the GE's ability is "Draw a card for each hero in battle.  Band a hero into battle.", do you draw 1 or 2?  If 1, then there exists a period of time when YWR's conditions are met when Goliath blocks.

I would agree with you if you could prove a time exists where no Hero is in battle but while in your example the answer is draw 1, I don't agree that proves your point on timing. When the enhancement is played, it's abilities begin resolving in order. If one of those abilities requires checking for information, it does so. This is not the same as a triggered ability on a completely different card being given time to check for information. If there was a card that said "If you play a good enhancement, you may add a Hero to battle" and you played the enhancement in the above example, you would still only draw 1 because that triggered ability would not have time to trigger until the enhancement was completely done.

Look, here is the definition straight from page 10 of the REG 4.1.2, titled "Triggered Ability":

"While triggered abilities are triggered by a condition or situation happening, they may not insert themselves between other abilities to resolve. Instead, they are pending until all other abilities resolve, and then the triggered event may activate."

So clearly triggered abilities can be triggered in the middle of other abilities.  And I think we can all agree that Goliath's Present ability happens AFTER his Withdraw ability.  Therefore, YWR would be triggered, regardless of whether YWR's owner decides to present a hero or not.

This is absolutely correct. I'm really confused as to why there's debate on this.

Triggers are always checking yes, and since there is a time that your hero is removed from battle, Goliath Triggers YWR. But triggers have to wait until all abilities complete to activate. After a hero is presented in battle opponent did not "removes your last character from battle" but rather removed him from battle. The tense is different. So, the trigger does not activate because it's conditions are not met.

Triggers don't care if they are met; they only care that they were met. 

If an evil card said "Discard all heroes.  Return those heroes to their owner's territories", would that trigger Ham? 

"last hero" logic still fails because updating doesn't change what happened, if:

Triggers don't care if they are met; they only care that they were met. 

I found this and nothing to support what I said about the conditions having to be met again

"While triggered abilities are triggered by a condition or situation happening, they may not
insert themselves between other abilities to resolve. Instead, they are pending until all other
abilities resolve, and then the triggered event may activate."

So, seems to me that after you present a new hero you could add another hero to battle BUT this is more of a loophole than anything; human reasoning will prevail (I bet); so sorry you cannot break YWR further. 

I may have misunderstood the position JM was taking, you can add a hero with YWR if you decline Goliath's present, but if you add a hero via Goliath then YWRs condition isn't satisfied when it attempts to resolve. For similar scenarios see Hidden Treasures

Appreciate the clarification on this.  Hidden Treasures was a great example.

So to make sure I understand:  It seems there are two types of triggers - State-based and Ability-based (excuse the terminology and go with it for a second). 

- State-based triggers such as "If your last hero is removed from battle", "If your lone green prophet begins a battle", etc. describe a state of the game.  These can trigger mid-ability (such as YWR/Goliath, or attacking with a banding green prophet when Hidden Treasures is active), but they check the game state again once all pending abilities complete.  If the game-state trigger is no longer met, the trigger won't activate.

- Action-based triggers happen when a certain game action is carried out, such as "If your hero is discarded" or "If opponent uses a draw ability" or "When your Purple king is blocked".  These can trigger mid-ability, and as far as I can tell, they won't check again once all pending abilities complete.  They only care that a certain action or ability "happened" - even if another ability restores the game state so that it's like the triggering ability never happened.  (Such as an ability that discards a hero, then returns that hero to play.)

Let me know if I'm off-base with this reasoning.

But it would be a confusing addition to the REG 5.0

How do you know that to be true...REG 5.0 might already be the most confusing thing ever...muahahahahaha 







Just kidding...it's been cleaned up a lot, and it will be going live any day now. 

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 05, 2018, 02:00:50 PM

I may have misunderstood the position JM was taking, you can add a hero with YWR if you decline Goliath's present, but if you add a hero via Goliath then YWRs condition isn't satisfied when it attempts to resolve. For similar scenarios see Hidden Treasures

Appreciate the clarification on this.  Hidden Treasures was a great example.

So to make sure I understand:  It seems there are two types of triggers - State-based and Ability-based (excuse the terminology and go with it for a second). 

- State-based triggers such as "If your last hero is removed from battle", "If your lone green prophet begins a battle", etc. describe a state of the game.  These can trigger mid-ability (such as YWR/Goliath, or attacking with a banding green prophet when Hidden Treasures is active), but they check the game state again once all pending abilities complete.  If the game-state trigger is no longer met, the trigger won't activate.

- Action-based triggers happen when a certain game action is carried out, such as "If your hero is discarded" or "If opponent uses a draw ability" or "When your Purple king is blocked".  These can trigger mid-ability, and as far as I can tell, they won't check again once all pending abilities complete.  They only care that a certain action or ability "happened" - even if another ability restores the game state so that it's like the triggering ability never happened.  (Such as an ability that discards a hero, then returns that hero to play.)

Let me know if I'm off-base with this reasoning.

I'm digging this reasoning, even if it isn't how it will be worded.

Hidden Treasures' trigger is "begins a battle", not "enters battle" - "begins a battle" is not the first Hero that enters, but is determined later, per the ruling that Rachel exchanging for Joseph results in a lone green prophet beginning the battle. That both HT and the Demon Discard LS (from Angel Wars) use "lone hero" requires the definition to be something other than the first Hero that enters battle.

All triggers are supposed to be action-based, referred to as events in REG 5.0.

Do you get SI between the withdraw and present? In general, since Goliath is CBN.

Edit:
I found a thread where I said that you do get SI between the withdraw and present, and Guardian agreed with me - which I still think is correct, and should mean the withdraw triggers YWR so you could add a character with the present and another with YWR. That granting SI is what would differentiate withdraw/present from CTR and exchange, which shouldn't trigger YWR.

Since triggers happen on events, there's not really a way for it to still be true when you can actually use the triggered ability.

How is special initiative relevant here? It really comes down to how triggers function as  YWR doesn't have any abilities that operate in SI.