Author Topic: Would this combo work? (Read 5027 times)

EmJayBee83 · « **on:** April 09, 2009, 11:12:45 AM »

In my soon to be famous "Women of the OT" deck, I gather Deborah so she can band to anyone.

I make a rescue with Deborah banded to Miriam (UL).

My opponent blocks with King Merodach-baladan, granting me initiative.

If I play Samson's Sacrifice, will Miriam's SA protect her from Samson's Sacrifice?

Miriam (UL) SA Hero ignores gold brigade.

Samson's Sacrifice (gold) SA If used by a judge, negate and discard one O.T. evil Fortress or occupied Site in play to discard all cards in battle and all human Evil Characters in opponent’s territory.

TimMierz · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2009, 11:17:42 AM »

According to Stephen's comment in http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14397.0 I conclude that you can only ignore or be immune to cards of other alignments. So Miriam only ignores evil gold cards, and Adino's Spear makes Heroes immune to only evil gold cards as well.

Isildur · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2009, 11:36:31 AM »

+ 1 I would say the same as she would still die because Mirriam would only ignore Evil Gold and not Good Gold.

Bryon · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2009, 01:04:48 PM »

I agree.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2009, 01:55:21 PM »

Sorry EM they are right

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2009, 02:18:13 PM »

Boo!!! Again I say, "Boo!!!"

How can we go against the clear and simple reading of the words on the card and just MAKE UP OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH an alternative meaning?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I may as well just quit playing if EVERY SINGLE TIME we have to come up with one-off rules that change every other day for no apparent reason.

<== Smileys to show how angry I am. That's right I'm SEVEN angry.

Seriously, though thanks for the ruling. It makes complete sense. I either forgot about or didn't read the Adino thread. I just found on of the UL Miriam last night and went "Huh, I wonder if..."

TimMierz · « **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2009, 03:02:39 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 09, 2009, 02:18:13 PM

How can we go against the clear and simple reading of the words on the card and just MAKE UP OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH an alternative meaning?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I may as well just quit playing if EVERY SINGLE TIME we have to come up with one-off rules that change every other day for no apparent reason.
<== Smileys to show how angry I am. That's right I'm SEVEN angry.

Nice effort (I like the "SEVEN angry" part), but I need more "less than zero percent" in there.

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2009, 05:12:08 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 09, 2009, 02:18:13 PM

Boo!!! Again I say, "Boo!!!"

What he said.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2009, 02:02:20 AM »

but then gabriel(wa) can still search for a good enhancment to discard?

The Schaef · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2009, 07:32:38 AM »

Searching has nothing to do with ignore. You can search for anything. Good guys don't ignore themselves.

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 10, 2009, 02:02:20 AM

but then gabriel(wa) can still search for a good enhancment to discard?

Long time, no see!

Quote from: The Schaef on April 10, 2009, 07:32:38 AM

Searching has nothing to do with ignore. You can search for anything. Good guys don't ignore themselves.

So bad guys DO ignore themselves?

The Schaef · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2009, 11:43:50 AM »

No, they don't, but that is not the issue here.

STAMP · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2009, 01:18:21 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 10, 2009, 11:43:50 AM

No, they don't, but that is not the issue here.

Actually, it is.

The bottom line in common with this thread and the one I started is that the PTB have decided that characters can protect themselves from cards of the same alignment, but cannot ignore or be immune to cards of the same alignment.

The good news is that once the REG is updated there is a clear rule for easier judging.

The bad news is that I personally think it's not fully consistent, and it completely ruins a very fun T2 deck I have.

The Schaef · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2009, 01:57:06 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on April 10, 2009, 01:18:21 PM

Actually, it is.

Actually, it's not. Miriam is a Hero. My answer specified Hero only because she's a Hero. Technically, the rule is same alignment, so my answer is accurate without being comprehensive. Not to mention, whether I'm talking about only good guys or good and bad together... really has nothing to do with your question below.

Quote

The bottom line in common with this thread and the one I started is that the PTB have decided that characters can protect themselves from cards of the same alignment, but cannot ignore or be immune to cards of the same alignment.

That's not an inconsistency because those three abilities are not identical. They have a lot in common, so much so that they share a classification in the rock/paper/scissors rule for which abilities trump what. But you are protected from effects, and you ignore/are immune to characters. That is the reason there are different terms for the different abilities, and it's the reason cards like Helmet of Salvation (Wa), Stone Cut Without Hands, and Manna don't really do anything the way they are originally written.

STAMP · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:07:37 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 10, 2009, 01:57:06 PM

They have a lot in common, so much so that they share a classification in the rock/paper/scissors rule for which abilities trump what. But you are protected from effects, and you ignore/are immune to characters.

And that seems consistent?

Well, I guess it seems consistent for anyone under 40.

TimMierz · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:18:53 PM »

It's consistent, yes. They're different, although related abilities. That's like complaining that the "paper" abilities are inconsistent because "prevent" only deals with future abilities while "negate" deals with past and future.

Bryon · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:22:14 PM »

Exactly, or that scissors abilities are inconsistent because "Cannot be prevented" abilities can still be interrupted.

There are a few abilities under each umbrella: rock, paper, and scissors.

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:48:57 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on April 10, 2009, 03:07:37 PM

And that seems consistent?

Yes, in that the same abilities do the same things, and different abilities do different things.

It's consistent in that you can't have an inconsistency with two different abilities.

STAMP · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2009, 05:48:22 PM »

MJB, I'll keep trying.

Okay, allow me to elucidate:

Paper
With no scissors around, my paper can cover any rock. (This is seen in the example that was discussed regarding banded heroes, Protection of Angels and Twelve-fingered Giant.)

Scissors
In the absence of rocks, my scissors cut all kinds of paper. (There's even a commandment on this one.)

Rock
I have three shiny, new rocks: protect, immunity, and ignore. As long as no paper is around I am able to smash any pair of scissors that come my way. The other two rocks, though, seem to have no power against some scissors...just because?!?!

That's how I see it.

Bryon · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2009, 06:04:52 PM »

Immune to a character protects from all effects that character does. Ignore is "keep out of battle + brush aside those in battle, followed by mutual immunity." Protect protects against a certain effect from all sources. In each case, you only protect from the listed things.

Just as you can only negate the special abilities on the type of card listed on the negate. For example, Flaming Sword does not negate the special ability on an evil character. Only an enhancement.

Just as there are left handed scissors (can't be prevented) and right handed scissors (can't be interrupted) and ambidextrous scissors (can't be negated).

In other words, you only apply Rock Paper Scissors when there is an actual conflict in the abilities. You don't apply Flaming Sword to Prince of this World, and you don't apply a "can't be interrupted" to a prevent. Those are not playing rock paper scissors with each other.

The Schaef · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2009, 06:22:37 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on April 10, 2009, 05:48:22 PM

Scissors
In the absence of rocks, my scissors cut all kinds of paper. (There's even a commandment on this one.)

You oversimplify to make your point. Cannot be prevented does not "cut" the "interrupt" kind of paper, and cannot be interrupted does not "cut" the "prevent" kind of paper. So how is this different from the supposed contradiction you put forth with rock?

Moreover, nearly every ability has some kind of condition or limitation depending on circumstance. The "protect from discard" rock has no effect on the "capture cannot be negated" scissors. So either EVERY circumstance with ANY condition is automatically inconsistent, or each combination must be judged on its own merits, by reading the cards and doing what they say.

STAMP · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2009, 06:24:07 PM »

Well, I tried. But Bryon is right.

But you gotta admit, Gathered Deb+Miriam+Sam's Sac or Ehud+Adino's Spear+Sam's Sac is totally wicked if MJB and I could have gotten away with it.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2009, 07:18:12 PM »

There are other ways to win souls after SS blasts though.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2009, 11:35:26 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on April 10, 2009, 06:24:07 PM

Well, I tried. But Bryon is right.

Does it make any difference if the scissors are safety scissors or not? 'Cause it's hard to hurt yourself with safety scissors. I think this needs to get added to the analogy somehow.

Quote

But you gotta admit, Gathered Deb+Miriam+Sam's Sac or Ehud+Adino's Spear+Sam's Sac is totally wicked if MJB and I could have gotten away with it.

It's even more wicked than that, Stamp. Thinking a bit more, I came up with the following... I block with King Rehoboam and start a side battle. I give you Miriam (ul) and I chose a gold hero for myself. Boom--the dreaded In cubed--Instant Infinite Initiative.

STAMP · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2009, 03:56:21 PM »

Genius! Pure genius!

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Author Topic: Would this combo work? (Read 5027 times)

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