Author Topic: When do these things happen? (Read 10006 times)

galadgawyn · « **on:** August 22, 2008, 04:04:50 PM »

When are the new cards drawn with A New Beginning?

If my opponent makes a rescue attempt and I block and play Besieging the City and then play a choose the rescuer card and select my hero that I have placed A New Beginning on, what happens? Does the opponent draw the 8 cards on their new turn? and since Besieging the City stops them from drawing, they get nothing and you get to draw first?

A New Beginning: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. • Errata: If making a rescue attempt, ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. [Note: The new turn begins when the new hands are drawn.]

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2008, 04:09:12 PM »

Quote

Special Ability: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn.

Hmm, what does "holder" refer to? That would be the question....

galadgawyn · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2008, 04:13:47 PM »

There are several cards that direct something to be done after the battle is over (if block or rescue is successful do x,y,z or Ark of the Covenant, etc..). Do these things happen during the battle resolution, after the battle resolution but still in the battle phase, after the battle phase but before the discard phase, or during the discard phase?

This could make a difference with abilities that are lasting until the end of the current phase.

For similar reasons, does The Long Day allow a second rescue attempt during the same battle phase or does it start a new battle phase, allowing you a second rescue attempt?

TimMierz · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2008, 04:14:12 PM »

Please post abilities.

Besieging the City (Play As): "Opponent is prevented from drawing cards next turn and from making a rescue attempt next turn."

The drawing happens before the next turn starts, because that is the order on A New Beginning's SA. All players get to draw 8 in your scenario.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2008, 04:25:43 PM »

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Hmm, what does "holder" refer to? That would be the question....

from the Reg:

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When the special ability of a card refers to the Holder, it means the player that activated the card. If your opponent controls one of your characters, he becomes the holder of that character for the remainder of the battle.

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The drawing happens before the next turn starts. All players get to draw 8 in your scenario.

Really? Does the drawing happen during the original battle phase? The way the card is worded it doesn't end the battle until it says "Holder may begin a new turn" which comes after the drawing of cards. However this would mean that Rain Becomes Dust (that was active during the original battle phase) would discard the 8 cards that are drawn and I'm pretty sure that was ruled against. The note says "The new turn begins when the new hands are drawn" which I thought meant that the cards were drawn on the new turn. If it is neither, then is it some ambiguous ability that draws cards on neither turn?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2008, 04:44:22 PM »

It works IF (I made this combo on the way to nats)
HT up.
battle green prophet
Sword of the Lord. in side battle use besieging the city, Make it so they can't draw but can r.a.
On block play another besieging the city then lies to choose your guy with anb placed on him.
They lose everything, draw nothing, and with the protector ls, you get a free ls!

Yes. I am devious.

This combo works confirmed by reyzen.

TimMierz · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2008, 04:44:57 PM »

It has to be on one turn or another. I read it as the cards being drawn on the same turn that the card is played, but the Rain Becomes Dust thing you mention apparently goes against that (although I was unaware of it). The note makes me think that as soon as all cards are drawn, THEN you start the new turn (and the current player then draws his 3). I was unaware of that RBD deal; if that is truly the case, then the next player misses out on 11 cards from Besieging the City.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2008, 04:47:38 PM »

RBD doesn't work because its out of play and deactive when the drawing happens. I may be wrong, which would work EVEN BETTER

. t2 players be afraid be VERY afraid.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2008, 05:00:39 PM »

Sure, RBD is shuffled but it wasn't negated. I was sure that the rule was ongoing abilities continue until the end of the current phase unless they are negated (even if they are removed or discarded they continue like a banded Moses that got CM'd).

It seems RBD would not work only if that battle ended but then it logically seems like the drawing happens on the next turn.

I think its ironic that the note to clarify is ambiguous and can be read to say the cards are drawn before or during the new turn.

SirNobody · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2008, 06:41:07 PM »

Hey,

I believe the approprite way to play A New Beginning would be as if it said: "If making a rescue attempt, shuffle all face down cards and all cards in the field of play, all set-aside areas, and all hands back into their owner's draw pile. End the battle. All players draw 8 cards. Holder may begin a new turn."

So the "All players draw 8 cards" part would happen during the discard phase of the turn in which A New Beginning was played. Which means it would be a new phase and thus a shuffled Rain Becomes Dust would not affect the drawn cards, but it would not yet be a new turn so Besieging the City would not prevent the drawing of cards either.

Quote from: galadgawyn on August 22, 2008, 04:13:47 PM

There are several cards that direct something to be done after the battle is over (if block or rescue is successful do x,y,z or Ark of the Covenant, etc..). Do these things happen during the battle resolution, after the battle resolution but still in the battle phase, after the battle phase but before the discard phase, or during the discard phase?

Those types of things happen during battle resolution. As a side note, the end of battle resolution is usually the end of the battle phase so "after the battle resolution but still in the battle phase" usually doesn't exist.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2008, 06:50:23 PM »

What if I had Chariot O'Fire active when I dropped ANB on the table? Can I shuffle in all my discarded heroes as well as everything else?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2008, 07:11:51 PM »

You use it now too. It's not your place to say that any longer!

galadgawyn · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2008, 08:52:27 PM »

Quote

So the "All players draw 8 cards" part would happen during the discard phase of the turn in which A New Beginning was played. Which means it would be a new phase and thus a shuffled Rain Becomes Dust would not affect the drawn cards, but it would not yet be a new turn so Besieging the City would not prevent the drawing of cards either.

So if you played a card that prevented drawing cards for the current turn, then it would stop the drawing of 8 cards, right?

Quote

Those types of things happen during battle resolution. As a side note, the end of battle resolution is usually the end of the battle phase so "after the battle resolution but still in the battle phase" usually doesn't exist.

But some of those abilities depend on the determination of a successful block or RA so it seemed like you would have to resolve the Battle Resolution in order to carry out the ability. Which seems like it would happen after Battle Resolution. Or is it queued up to happen at the end of Battle Resolution?

Also, still wondering about The Long Day.

SirNobody · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2008, 09:06:46 PM »

Hey,

If you like reading: http://cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=4916.0 is a very good read on the topic of Chariot of Fire and A New Beginning. It gets off on several tangents, includes a few very inacurate comments, and doesn't express a clear conclusion...but at least it's a good read.

What I was able to gather from the thread is that the phrase "Following your rescue attempt" on Chariot of Fire happens at the end of the battle phase not at the beginning of the discard phase, which means that Chariot of Fire would trigger before it's ability fades at the end of the battle phase.

Modifying my suggestion from earlier in this thread slightly, I suggest we play A New Beginning as if it said, "If making a rescue attempt, shuffle all face down cards and all cards in the field of play, all set-aside areas, and all hands back into their owner's draw pile. End the battle. After battle resolution, all players draw 8 cards and holder may begin a new turn."

Which then allows Chariot of Fire to be triggered during battle resolution, after the instantaneous part of A New Beginning and allows it to be carried out at that point, before the ongoing/delayed part of a new beginning.

Or long and short, yes I believe Chariot of Fire would allow you to shuffle your discarded heroes if it was active when A New Beginning was played. The discarded heroes would be shuffled after all the other cards are shuffled by A New Beginning but before the drawing of new hands part of A New Beginning.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2008, 09:09:36 PM »

Tim M. if you used my combo

Quote

Sword of the Lord. in side battle use besieging the city, Make it so they can't draw but can r.a.
On block play another besieging the city then lies to choose your guy with anb placed on him.
They lose everything, draw nothing, and with the protector ls, you get a free ls!

Would that work?

SirNobody · « **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2008, 09:17:16 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: galadgawyn on August 22, 2008, 08:52:27 PM

So if you played a card that prevented drawing cards for the current turn, then it would stop the drawing of 8 cards, right?

Yes.

Quote

But some of those abilities depend on the determination of a successful block or RA so it seemed like you would have to resolve the Battle Resolution in order to carry out the ability. Which seems like it would happen after Battle Resolution. Or is it queued up to happen at the end of Battle Resolution?

The first thing that happens during battle resolution is determining what characters are being defeated and determining the result of battle (was it a rescue attempt or battle challenge? was it successful or unsuccessful?) The rest of battle resolution is a variety of game actions and triggered special abilities (such as the ones you mentioned) that happen in response to those determined things.

Quote

Also, still wondering about The Long Day.

My opinion is that The Long Day would cause a second battle in the same battle phase. But that is only my opinion at this point.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

SirNobody · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2008, 09:27:47 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on August 22, 2008, 09:09:36 PM

Tim M. if you used my combo

Quote
Sword of the Lord. in side battle use besieging the city, Make it so they can't draw but can r.a.
On block play another besieging the city then lies to choose your guy with anb placed on him.
They lose everything, draw nothing, and with the protector ls, you get a free ls!
Would that work?

The "make it so thay can't draw but can r.a." part doesn't work/make sense to me. I don't know how you are getting to that.

You could just use Displeased Philistines on your turn and then when they attack on their turn do the Lies/Character with placed A New Beginning thing and they would lose everything and wouldn't get to draw the 8 cards (they would get to draw the 3 cards at the start of the new turn though, unless before you played lies you played another copy of Displeased Philistines in that battle).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2008, 09:40:07 PM »

"Because it is an or ability I can choose to do One or both" - Reyzen

SirNobody · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2008, 10:06:41 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on August 22, 2008, 09:40:07 PM

"Because it is an or ability I can choose to do One or both" - Reyzen

"May" by itself indicates an optional ability. "May" with "not" indicates a prevent ability unless there is also a "be" in which case it is a protect. In other words, "may" = optional, "may not" = prevent, "may not be" = protect.

The "May not...or" in Besieging the City works like "neither...nor" just with less funny sounding words.

Which is how we get the Play As for Besieging the City which says: "Opponent is prevented from drawing cards next turn and from making a rescue attempt next turn."

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2008, 11:59:13 PM »

k so I'd need a crimson/black defense (gomer-sad 2x dis phil+sarah's jealousy)?

SirNobody · « **Reply #20 on:** August 23, 2008, 12:11:18 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on August 22, 2008, 11:59:13 PM

k so I'd need a crimson/black defense (gomer-sad 2x dis phil+sarah's jealousy)?

Yep. That should work.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #21 on:** August 23, 2008, 12:52:00 AM »

GOODIE :rollin Time for t2 fun!

galadgawyn · « **Reply #22 on:** September 06, 2008, 12:24:38 AM »

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My opinion is that The Long Day would cause a second battle in the same battle phase. But that is only my opinion at this point.

I was reading the Reg and happened to find the answer to this question:

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Playing a Negate All Hero on the second rescue attempt does not negate The Long Day on the first rescue attempt. The failed rescue attempt is resolved, so the second rescue attempt is not effected by the first rescue attempt (e.g., play by the numbers). The second rescue attempt is treated as a second Battle Phase, not an additional battle.

I'm sure there are some uses for this like using split altar and The Long Day to effectively negate the artifacts for your next rescue attempt.
It also seems like if you use various cards like convert, capture, and recursion in the first battle that they couldn't be negated by cards played in the second battle. Right?

News:

Author Topic: When do these things happen? (Read 10006 times)