Author Topic: When can I discard my Gates? (Read 9000 times)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #25 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:36:37 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 25, 2009, 02:28:36 PM

Gates isn't even necessary to do it in T1.

Nope, but it might be necessary to do it in T1 after an errata to another card (which I hear is in the works).

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #26 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:42:54 PM »

I could care less about "brokenness." I simply want to see consistency with the interpretation of abilities. This SA is not a "paired ability" as Sir Nobody mentioned in previous threads. The last sentence does make sense when it stands alone. The apparent design of the card was to allow you to get cards from the bottom of your deck. However, an additional ability was to allow you to bring that or any other demon into a battle when you needed it. This is not a conditional ability, since it does not say "demon" or "that demon." The wording of "your demon" means that the ability can stand alone. With that said, the ability also specifies "the battle" which sets up a prerequisite for the ability.

The only brokenness that I fear is an inconsistent, do-what-we-want interpretation process that makes being a judge nearly impossible, especially for newcomers to the game.

Sean · « **Reply #27 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:45:59 PM »

Quote

The only brokenness that I fear is an inconsistent, do-what-we-want interpretation process that makes being a judge nearly impossible, especially for newcomers to the game.

Agree 100%.

STAMP · « **Reply #28 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:50:06 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 25, 2009, 02:42:54 PM

The only brokenness that I fear is an inconsistent, do-what-we-want interpretation process that makes being a judge nearly impossible, especially for newcomers to the game.

...and "oldleavers" like me. Ahh, retirement is good!

Korunks · « **Reply #29 on:** November 25, 2009, 03:17:14 PM »

Quote

I must be missing something. What is the "it" that people refer to you trying?

I think there is some broken combo that isn't being revealed, that those "in" the know are aware of, but so far have not shared.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #30 on:** November 25, 2009, 03:48:42 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on November 25, 2009, 03:17:14 PM

Quote
I must be missing something. What is the "it" that people refer to you trying?

I think there is some broken combo that isn't being revealed, that those "in" the know are aware of, but so far have not shared.

There is definately an 'It' It's also mine, thus the PM from Gabe. I won't reveal what it is, and I ask that those who do know (Gabe, Prof, Sean etc) don't either, simply that it likes Gates to be discarded.

EDIT: Well actually I guess the deck is Gabe's - The Combo was origionally mine.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #31 on:** November 25, 2009, 04:00:16 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on November 25, 2009, 03:48:42 PM

I ask that those who do know (Gabe, Prof, Sean etc) don't either, simply that it likes Gates to be discarded.

No problem here. I have no plans of sharing your dastardly plan with anyone (unless Rob asks me). It is quite creative and I am glad that you and Gabe are getting the recognition that you deserve for it

SirNobody · « **Reply #32 on:** November 25, 2009, 04:42:35 PM »

Hey,

When I see the word "to" in an ability I view that as splitting the sentence in half, everything before it is the cost, everything after it is the benefit. Which results in:

(You may discard this card) to (add your demon to the battle).

"You may discard this card" is an ability that you can perform at any time (because it's a fortress).
"Add your demon to the battle" is an ability that only works if there is currently a battle going on (that is not a heroes vs heroes side battle).

So yes, you can discard your own Gates during a phase other than the battle phase and gain no benefit.

(this would be similar to playing Visions off of Hidden Treasures, it doesn't do you much good, but you can do it.)

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Sean · « **Reply #33 on:** November 25, 2009, 05:34:13 PM »

Quote

I have no plans of sharing your dastardly plan with anyone (unless Rob asks me).

RDT told me that he had informed play testers already.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #34 on:** November 25, 2009, 06:57:12 PM »

I've shown it to enough people 'In the know' and I happen to know there is a discussion on it over on the playtesters side of the board.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #35 on:** November 25, 2009, 08:38:00 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2009, 02:36:37 PM

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 25, 2009, 02:28:36 PM
Gates isn't even necessary to do it in T1.
Nope, but it might be necessary to do it in T1 after an errata to another card (which I hear is in the works).

I just hope the card being considered for the errata is not the one I fear it is.

Let's just say it wouldn't be fair to give a second errata to a card before other worthy contenders get their first errata.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on November 25, 2009, 06:57:12 PM

I've shown it to enough people 'In the know' and I happen to know there is a discussion on it over on the playtesters side of the board.

Since there was absolutely no question of the combo's legality, you might have been better served to wait until after you play it (and win) at Nationals before bringing it up to people "in the know."

lightningninja · « **Reply #36 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:07:54 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on November 25, 2009, 12:03:07 PM

Quote from: Sean on November 25, 2009, 12:00:42 PM
Seems like that sentence is dependent on the one before it. I think we should be able to use Gates to create a battle challenge that starts with an Evil Character.

I see how you could interpret it that way, but since that violates a game rule (heroes make RAs, ECs block) that wouldn't work. Game rules > an individual card wording

That is absolutely wrong. The whole point of special abilities are to allow us to do things that the game typically can't allow. You can't discard cards from your deck, but Jepthah "disobeys" this game rule because he has a special ability.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #37 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:26:10 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on November 25, 2009, 09:07:54 PM

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on November 25, 2009, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Sean on November 25, 2009, 12:00:42 PM
Seems like that sentence is dependent on the one before it. I think we should be able to use Gates to create a battle challenge that starts with an Evil Character.

I see how you could interpret it that way, but since that violates a game rule (heroes make RAs, ECs block) that wouldn't work. Game rules > an individual card wording
That is absolutely wrong. The whole point of special abilities are to allow us to do things that the game typically can't allow. You can't discard cards from your deck, but Jepthah "disobeys" this game rule because he has a special ability.

I understand what you are saying, but ECs do not make RAs just as heroes do not block. Unless a card SPECIFICALLY allows for it, it can't be done.

lightningninja · « **Reply #38 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:54:32 PM »

Oh, in that regard yes.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #39 on:** November 26, 2009, 09:10:11 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on November 25, 2009, 04:42:35 PM

When I see the word "to" in an ability I view that as splitting the sentence in half, everything before it is the cost, everything after it is the benefit.

So is this just "the way Tim does it" or this officially how judges are supposed to rule all cards with the word "to" in the SA? Again, I am looking for consistency.

Gabe · « **Reply #40 on:** November 26, 2009, 11:24:20 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 26, 2009, 09:10:11 AM

Quote from: SirNobody on November 25, 2009, 04:42:35 PM
When I see the word "to" in an ability I view that as splitting the sentence in half, everything before it is the cost, everything after it is the benefit.

So is this just "the way Tim does it" or this officially how judges are supposed to rule all cards with the word "to" in the SA? Again, I am looking for consistency.

This is the way all cost/benefit abilities are to be played. You can tell a cost/benefit ability because it's worded "pay X to do Y".

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #41 on:** November 26, 2009, 06:55:14 PM »

Oh please don't errata this away

Although now that I'm no longer in the states, I guess I don't have to keep it a secret too...but I will.

Korunks · « **Reply #42 on:** November 27, 2009, 03:22:21 PM »

I have to humbly ask this, can someone pm and tell me what this "it" is? I am concerned that since I am not "in the know" that at any of my next tournaments I will rule this incorrectly, especially given the fact I have no clue what any one is talking about. I know how protective people are about their "secret" combo's. But it is really easy for me to make a "wrong" ruling because how I see redemption working does not always line up with what is posted on these forum's. I understand if no one wants to clue me in, but I had to ask before I cost some the game by not ruling it their way. I have no intentions of blabbing this secret around, I host far more than I play.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #43 on:** November 27, 2009, 03:35:04 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on November 27, 2009, 03:22:21 PM

I have to humbly ask this, can someone pm and tell me what this "it" is? I am concerned that since I am not "in the know" that at any of my next tournaments I will rule this incorrectly, especially given the fact I have no clue what any one is talking about.

People who spend time coming up with dastardly combos tend to be rather tight lipped about who they share it with. (I am a little surprised RDT decided to share it with the PtB rather than saving it up to take a shot at winning Nats.)

If it makes you feel better "it" is--as I posted above--entirely legal. If someone played it at one of your tournaments there is little chance you would even be asked to make a ruling. And if you were called in there is no chance an experienced judge would blow the call.

Sean · « **Reply #44 on:** November 27, 2009, 03:49:43 PM »

EJB is right, the combo doesn't need any ruling. It just uses the special abilities as printed. It is very straight forward. I'm also pretty sure that I'm the only one anywhere near MD that knows about it. I won't be playing it.

STAMP · « **Reply #45 on:** November 27, 2009, 04:37:24 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on November 27, 2009, 03:22:21 PM

I have to humbly ask this, can someone pm and tell me what this "it" is? I am concerned that since I am not "in the know" that at any of my next tournaments I will rule this incorrectly, especially given the fact I have no clue what any one is talking about. I know how protective people are about their "secret" combo's. But it is really easy for me to make a "wrong" ruling because how I see redemption working does not always line up with what is posted on these forum's. I understand if no one wants to clue me in, but I had to ask before I cost some the game by not ruling it their way. I have no intentions of blabbing this secret around, I host far more than I play.

Just use a little CSI work.

Clues:
1. The combo requires discarding Gates in a phase other than the battle phase.
2. There is no game rule that allows a fortress to be discarded from territory in any phase.

Possible motives:
1. The absence of Gates assists the player.
2. The discarding of Gates triggers something else.

Gabe · « **Reply #46 on:** November 27, 2009, 05:30:53 PM »

I'll make it easy on you.

A) If you play RTS I'd be glad to play the deck against you. It's not as good as the hype builds it up to be but it is rather dastardly when it works.

B) The only purpose to discarding Gates is so that there is one less card. I want as few cards as possible.

The Schaef · « **Reply #47 on:** November 30, 2009, 07:44:11 PM »

If the discarding of Gates outside of the Battle Phase breaks the game, someone who knows the combo please PM it to me. I can't think of a single reason discarding a Fortress would break the game, and any discussions taking place re: Gates behind closed doors are not following this line of thinking.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #48 on:** November 30, 2009, 09:19:01 PM »

Schaef, It doesn't break the game - The combo is completely possible without discarding it, discarding Gates just makes it ever so slightly easier.

The Schaef · « **Reply #49 on:** December 01, 2009, 08:15:22 AM »

All I need to know. Thanks to you and the couple PMers who responded.

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Author Topic: When can I discard my Gates? (Read 9000 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef