Author Topic: What happens? (Read 3998 times)

Nameless · « **on:** April 03, 2012, 08:42:40 AM »

You use Ambush to place a random hero with a band ability face down.Next turn you activate Household Idols and go out with the face down hero. Your opponent blocks and the hero is flipped upright. What Happens? Infinite inish?

Praeceps · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2012, 09:23:42 AM »

Unless you can negate HHI, then yes. Ignore is ongoing so while it can't keep the face down out of battle, it can ignore him/her once he/she's flipped over.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2012, 11:31:47 AM »

To my Knowledge Ambush wouldn't count as a band unless there was another hero in battle before he was flipped up.

STAMP · « **Reply #3 on:** April 03, 2012, 01:11:23 PM »

The ignore part of HHI just keeps heroes from entering battle, which in this case cannot target a face down hero. Once hero is in battle, HHI continues to ignore the hero but ECs do not. Then the prevent part of HHI prevents the band from occurring.

So...you get basically you get a normal battle between the hero and EC(s) to which you determine initiative after each card is played.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2012, 01:58:20 PM »

I'm not so sure about that. The actual definition of the 4 parts of Ignore is relevant.

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2012, 03:15:03 PM »

I believe Stamp is correct. HHI's ignore stops them from entering battle, but if you manage to get one in anyway (such as with Ambush), the ignore doesn't really do anything since the artifact is doing the ignoring (and not the ECs). You couldn't play an enhancement to get rid of HHI, but the battle itself should carry out as normal.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** April 03, 2012, 06:19:40 PM »

I don't believe that is true. I know for a fact that it has been ruled that a Three Nails that is activated after a demon has entered battle will cause the demon to be losing. I see no reason why HHI wouldn't do the same thing to banding Heroes.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** April 03, 2012, 06:57:28 PM »

The relevant rule Polarius referenced:

Quote

4. characters already in battle and ignored are treated as though they were not in battle for purposes of determining battle outcome

Doesn't this mean that their numbers do not count towards battle resolution? And what does that mean in this case, where the EC is not the one actually obtaining "ignoring" status, but the card is still ignored? Can the hero be killed, or is he "not treated as being there" and therefore doesn't get affected by opponents' numbers, nor them his? And if this is the case, who actually has any initiative?

And why are there so many Ignore issues of late

Professoralstad · « **Reply #8 on:** April 03, 2012, 07:11:16 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 03, 2012, 06:57:28 PM

And why are there so many Ignore issues of late

Because with the possible exception of abilities with "instead", ignore is the most complicated ability in Redemption.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2012, 07:29:33 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 03, 2012, 06:19:40 PM

I don't believe that is true. I know for a fact that it has been ruled that a Three Nails that is activated after a demon has entered battle will cause the demon to be losing. I see no reason why HHI wouldn't do the same thing to banding Heroes.

I'm fine with the ruling being the same for both artifacts (consistency is good), but it doesn't really make sense to me. The artifact is what's ignoring the character, not opposing characters, so I see no reason why the opposing characters would still be gaining the benefits of having ignoring status.

Josh · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2012, 09:57:55 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 03, 2012, 07:29:33 PM

I'm fine with the ruling being the same for both artifacts (consistency is good), but it doesn't really make sense to me. The artifact is what's ignoring the character, not opposing characters, so I see no reason why the opposing characters would still be gaining the benefits of having ignoring status.

I don't think the artifact is doing the ignoring. It is causing the hero to be ignored, but by granting "Ignore good banding cards" to the ECs in battle.

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2012, 11:03:27 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on April 03, 2012, 09:57:55 PM

I don't think the artifact is doing the ignoring. It is causing the hero to be ignored, but by granting "Ignore good banding cards" to the ECs in battle.

That is not correct. It never targets the EC, nor grants them "ignoring" status (or the immunity that comes with it). It only grants "ignored" status to good banding cards.

The wording on the card is not "All EC Ignore good banding cards". If it were, you'd have a case, but the targets are not the same as your stated case.

Josh · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2012, 11:11:46 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 03, 2012, 11:03:27 PM

Quote from: jmhartz on April 03, 2012, 09:57:55 PM
I don't think the artifact is doing the ignoring. It is causing the hero to be ignored, but by granting "Ignore good banding cards" to the ECs in battle.

That is not correct. It never targets the EC, nor grants them "ignoring" status (or the immunity that comes with it). It only grants "ignored" status to good banding cards.

The wording on the card is not "All EC Ignore good banding cards". If it were, you'd have a case, but the targets are not the same as your stated case.

Now that I think about it, you are right, because if HHI is up and a banding hero is in battle, no soul will be rescued.

But HHI does target the field of battle (according to a LONG discussion with Schaef and friends who were trying to figure out who was doing the ignoring in the case of HHI). If the hero gets in battle somehow but has a banding ability and HHI is active, it's like he's not there for battle resolution: he can rescue no souls, no one is discarded by numbers, but the hero is by definition "losing", so until the ignore goes away, the hero has initiative.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2012, 07:28:03 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 03, 2012, 07:11:16 PM

Because with the possible exception of abilities with "instead", ignore is the most complicated ability in Redemption.

Really easy problem to fix...

Professoralstad · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2012, 11:24:02 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on April 04, 2012, 07:28:03 AM

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 03, 2012, 07:11:16 PM
Because with the possible exception of abilities with "instead", ignore is the most complicated ability in Redemption.
Really easy problem to fix...

Orly? Do tell.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2012, 04:10:43 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 04, 2012, 11:24:02 AM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on April 04, 2012, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: Professoralstad on April 03, 2012, 07:11:16 PM
Because with the possible exception of abilities with "instead", ignore is the most complicated ability in Redemption.
Really easy problem to fix...

Orly? Do tell.

I've stated this before. The REG isn't working for me right now, but basically there are currently 4 parts to the ignore ability, and IMO "ignore" really only needs to have 1 or 2 of them. (The "ignored characters outside of battle can't enter battle" part should be for the "cannot block" special ability only. The "Has no effect" ability should get one or two of the other parts.) Not only would this simplify, but it would destroy the currently still powerful pre-block ignore.

SirNobody · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2012, 02:54:29 PM »

Hey,

I don't think the ambushed hero can enter battle while Household Idols is active. If I have a face down copy of a unique character in my territory, I cannot put another copy of that character down, because even while face down it still has it's identity. So even while face down it's still a banding card. The fact that it's face down doesn't protect it from being affected by the ignore of Household Idols anymore than if the character was in my hand, or in my draw pile (and I was going after it with say, answer to prayer).

The only way to get a character with a banding ability into battle while Household Idols is active is to interrupt Household Idols and band them in, or to activate Household Idols after the character is already in battle. If that happens, it works out the same as if the evil character had caused the ignore with the exception that the hero and evil character are not immune to each other.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2012, 02:57:12 PM »

I forget how this was ruled: are face down cards considered in play? If not, then HHI can't target the face down hero until it gets flipped up.

SirNobody · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2012, 03:02:09 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 05, 2012, 02:57:12 PM

I forget how this was ruled: are face down cards considered in play? If not, then HHI can't target the face down hero until it gets flipped up.

Face down cards are not in play, but it doesn't matter. The "ignored characters cannot enter battle" part of ignore doesn't try to target the character anyway.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2012, 03:37:55 PM »

Face-down has been needing a ruling revamp for years. There would be no problems created and many problems cleared up if face-down cards lost all identity except card type until they were flipped face-up.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2012, 04:06:39 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 05, 2012, 03:37:55 PM

Face-down has been needing a ruling revamp for years. There would be no problems created and many problems cleared up if face-down cards lost all identity except card type until they were flipped face-up.

I agree with this.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2012, 04:29:36 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 05, 2012, 04:06:39 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 05, 2012, 03:37:55 PM
Face-down has been needing a ruling revamp for years. There would be no problems created and many problems cleared up if face-down cards lost all identity except card type until they were flipped face-up.
I agree with this.

Assuming this idea is vetted further, I could get behind it as well.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2012, 04:47:58 PM »

Not an Elder, but I also agree with it.

STAMP · « **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2012, 06:37:39 PM »

{STAMP faintly recognizes a glimmer of common sense beginning to bloom...like a flower blooms in spring...}

{mutters, "why do we have to wait until the spring?!!"}

Nameless · « **Reply #24 on:** April 07, 2012, 04:19:39 PM »

So is there a short answer to this question?

News:

Author Topic: What happens? (Read 3998 times)

browarod

browarod

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy