Author Topic: What do I do with these cards? (Read 13709 times)

lightningninja · « **Reply #25 on:** July 04, 2009, 08:01:58 PM »

I refer to my older post. You're talking to the top people who establish rules. They are making sense, even if you don't understand them. I don't all the time as well. It's perfectly fine. Just don't be all up in their faces, and stop being rude. If you can't follow a ruling don't try.

lightningninja · « **Reply #26 on:** July 04, 2009, 09:04:43 PM »

Your posts betray your understanding.

SirNobody · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2009, 10:43:21 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: SJSharks on July 04, 2009, 07:51:47 PM

Which is true?

Both, except for the typo in the end of the first quote that says shuffle when it should say discard.

Quote from: Da Muzik Maker on July 04, 2009, 07:56:25 PM

so are we gonna cheat and not play by game rules or are we gonna play by game rules?

Cheating is bad, we're not going to do that

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at with your post. Sometimes one game rule supersedes another game rule which causes the lesser game rule not to be followed, but that's still following the game rules as a whole.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SJSharks · « **Reply #28 on:** July 04, 2009, 10:53:42 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on July 04, 2009, 10:43:21 PM

Hey,

Quote from: SJSharks on July 04, 2009, 07:51:47 PM
Which is true?

Both, except for the typo in the end of the first quote that says shuffle when it should say discard.
Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

How can it be true that both cards that are protected from effect are not protected from effect by game rules, while at the same time cards the are protected from discard are protected from game rules?

SirNobody · « **Reply #29 on:** July 04, 2009, 11:03:03 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: SJSharks on July 04, 2009, 10:53:42 PM

How can it be true that both cards that are protected from effect are not protected from effect by game rules, while at the same time cards the are protected from discard are protected from game rules?

"effect" in Redemption is a word we use to refer to the strength, toughness, and special abilities of one or more cards. So a card that is protected from "effect" is protected from special abilities (and strength and toughness, but that's kinda irrelevant). Game rules are not an "effect" so being protected from "effect" does not protect you from game rules.

You have to be careful when applying English meanings to word used in a Redemption context because often the Redemption meaning of a word isn't exactly the same as the English meaning of the word.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #30 on:** July 04, 2009, 11:36:43 PM »

Yeah, to protect from discarding in the territory, not shuffle when the game resets.

SJSharks · « **Reply #31 on:** July 04, 2009, 11:45:21 PM »

Quote from: Janissary on July 04, 2009, 11:36:43 PM

Yeah, to protect from discarding in the territory, not shuffle when the game resets.

This discussion is not relating to ANB.

Quote from: Da Muzik Maker on July 04, 2009, 11:06:32 PM

the way i see it is that people put goshen/KoTW in their deck for a reson. to protect, but, if it doesnt protect what is the meaning of it?

Goshen and Kingdoms of the World have become much less powerful.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #32 on:** July 04, 2009, 11:46:41 PM »

How so? Much? Maybe a little yeah, but not much. I would say protecting from shuffle would make the OP'd. ANB reset Type 2 decks would be pwnage, and Prophets are already widespread enough.

SJSharks · « **Reply #33 on:** July 04, 2009, 11:49:53 PM »

I don't really care about ANB(I think that ruling is correct because the REG says it is), but placing characters in Kingdoms of the World is just giving your opponent an easy way to discard 3 evil characters.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #34 on:** July 04, 2009, 11:52:16 PM »

Since when is discarding NT fortresses easy? OTs are hard enough.

SJSharks · « **Reply #35 on:** July 04, 2009, 11:56:52 PM »

Well maybe not "easy" but it has happened to me more then once, so it can be done.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #36 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:09:18 AM »

If it isn't likely to happen constantly, why get upset about it? Theres's much more devastating rules out there.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #37 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:19:09 AM »

Quote from: Da Muzik Maker on July 05, 2009, 12:09:28 AM

Quote from: Janissary on July 04, 2009, 11:52:16 PM
Since when is discarding NT fortresses easy? OTs are hard enough.

im sorry did we say it was easy? we didnt mean to. and stop refering to ANB it has nothing to do with this topic this topic is about KoTW and the lord fights for you and those two cards only. stay on topic.

ANB is on topic. It's a precedent to compare the discarding scenario to. SJS agrees that ANB should shuffle character in KOTW. Naturally, Logically, one would assume then, that guys in a KOTW being discarding would be discarding as well. Makes sense to most people, and is hardly gambreaking. It probably improves the game, aside from the fact that it brings in some consistancy.

Quote

and lets put it this way ok? vengance of eternal fire discards a lost soul site so does that mean that the LS is discarded as well since it is obviously following the site just like evil characters follow KoTW?

Quote

this topic is about KoTW and the lord fights for you and those two cards only. stay on topic.

Don't say things you don't mean and maybe you'd get more respect.

P.S. That's an exception to the rule due to game state (Location being in the land of bondage) jsut as much as captured heroes are exceptions to certain rules, etc.

Quote

Quote from: Janissary on July 05, 2009, 12:09:18 AM
If it isn't likely to happen constantly, why get upset about it? Theres's much more devastating rules out there.

i dont know if you have noticed this or not.. but people seem to discus things like this all the time on here... :/

Because your version of discussing is going better? You rehash things repeatedly and then get mad once your point is clearly rebutted by much more expirienced rule enforcers and from the REG. This argument was done halfway through page 2 on both logic and game rule.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #38 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:22:09 AM »

REG > Discard and Remove > Default Conditions:

Quote

• If a site, artifact, or character is discarded or returned to hand, discard all cards placed on it. If a card leaves the Land of Bondage, discard all evil cards placed on it other than Lost Souls or captured characters.

• The following is understood when discarding a site: “If site still holds a Lost Soul, Lost Soul is returned to general Land of Bondage. Discard any other cards in that site.” Unless stated otherwise, holder chooses which site (occupied or unoccupied) to discard.

SJSharks · « **Reply #39 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:23:51 AM »

Quote from: Janissary on July 05, 2009, 12:19:09 AM

Because your version of discussing is going better? You rehash things repeatedly and then get mad once your point is clearly rebutted by much more expirienced rule enforcers and from the REG. This argument was done halfway through page 2 on both logic and game rule.

Crearly rebutted by the REG? The REG sides with us on this point.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #40 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:28:27 AM »

Yes, the online REG does agree with you. However, it's been shown to be outdated and it's been stated by Tim Maly and Bryon that it is outdated and that it need to be changed. Somewhere, there is a correct REG. It's entirety however, is not online currently, so we must learn to deal with it. Most of the problems are in smei-obscure rulings like this.

EDIT: King David isn't a musician in the REG. Does that mean he is not a musician in the game currently?

SJSharks · « **Reply #41 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:29:52 AM »

What offline REG?

lightningninja · « **Reply #42 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:39:13 AM »

Da Muzik Maker, your posts don't make sense. First you say that the REG is ALWAYS right. Which is obviously not the case. There are countless threads where we are still finding faults with the REG.

Secondly, you talk about game rules and how no card can upset a game rule. Then why can Jephtah discard the top card of your deck? No game rule says that you can discard cards. But if a CARD SAYS SO, it's done. That's kind of the point of special abilities.

Lastly, how good Kingdoms of this world is has no relevance of what the card should do. We base rules on what special abilities say, not on how good we want cards to be and how good we want cards to stay. Also, if kingdoms protects cards IN THE FORTRESS from harm, and there is no more fortress, how can the cards be protected?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #43 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:40:54 AM »

I'm going to change my wording up there. It's poor phrasing. I just updates that need to be made to the REG are clearly kept somewhere and there is a foolproof REG somewhere. It's clearly offline, and so, I used the phrase offline REG.

PS @ Da Muzik Maker: If I discard your Goliath with Goliath's Armor on it with The Lord Fights for You, his armor stays in play right? I mean, I targeted Goliath, not the armor.

lightningninja · « **Reply #44 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:46:11 AM »

Assuming you meant an evil card, it's because we are following a default game rule. If kingdoms are gone, there is no special ability that says to return them to territory, so they are discarded with kingdoms. It's a rule. What exactly are you trying to argue?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #45 on:** July 05, 2009, 12:47:06 AM »

Notice the ignorance of similar situations establishing precedence for my example. At least counter our arguments please.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #46 on:** July 05, 2009, 01:18:45 PM »

Quote from: Da Muzik Maker on July 05, 2009, 12:42:37 AM

what is the point of a protect card if the protect card doesnt protect? hm? what is the point? help me out here.

The point of kingdoms is to protect your evil characters from cards like AOC and sampson sacrifice. It also stops choose the blocker extremely well. However just like every other card in the game it has it's weekness's and this is one of them.

Quote from: Da Muzik Maker on July 05, 2009, 12:30:50 AM

the lord fights for you discards "A" evil card not "A" evil card and all evil cards following it. cause that would mean if i made a block using all my sadducees and you discarded one of them with a good enh would the rest of the sadducees get discarded? No.

The lord fights for you is only discarding one evil card in this scenario. The cards in kingdoms are being discarded by a game rule, not by The Lord Fights For You.

The Schaef · « **Reply #47 on:** July 05, 2009, 02:02:13 PM »

Protect is an ability that means a special ability or other effect cannot target the card in question. This is in the REG, if not also in the rulebook.

Kingdoms of the World protects the Evil Characters inside, meaning that an effect cannot target them.

If a card or cards have been placed "on" - or "in" or what have you - another card, then those cards follow the original. This is in the REG.

Lost Souls are an exception because the REG states that they remain in the Land of Bondage. This is in the REG.

Weapons have their own special rules regarding how they are treated. This is in the rulebook.

Therefore, when a card targets Kingdoms of the World, it is KotW that is discarded, or shuffled, or whatever. The other cards follow it by game rule. They are not being targeted by the card that was played, they are following the card they're in.

The protection may not be applicable if you are targeting the Fortress directly, but the fact remains that the protection still stops them from being targeted by other cards. You cannot play Angel of the Lord on an Evil Character in the Fortress. You cannot target any of those Evil Characters with Zeal for the Lord. David's Music does not affect them. The protection may not be as complete as you think because there's a back door to get rid of them, but it is still there, and still effective.

SJSharks · « **Reply #48 on:** July 05, 2009, 08:38:33 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on July 05, 2009, 02:02:13 PM

If a card or cards have been placed "on" - or "in" or what have you - another card, then those cards follow the original. This is in the REG.

Really where in the REG does it say this.

The Schaef · « **Reply #49 on:** July 05, 2009, 09:24:33 PM »

Gabe quoted the relevant section of the REG in his opening post, which was the entire reason for his question.

I'm really not interested in playing this game. Everything I stated above has been posted on this thread at some point. All of the statements I have made are what the current rules are. That is how the cards are played and the reasons they are played that way.

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Author Topic: What do I do with these cards? (Read 13709 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef