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Shortly after Priests came out TPTB made a ruling about ANB shuffling characters in KotW or Goshen.  The basis of the ruling (as I remember it) is that cards "held by" or "placed on" another card follow the "holder" or share the fate of the card they reside in/on.

I cannot find anything in the REG to support that ruling.  I looked under the "discard" and "placed" sections.

Last night a situation came up on a game where KotW was being discarded by The Lord Fights for You.  My opponent said that the characters held in KotW are returned to territory and found this quote from the REG to support it:

If Goshen or Kingdoms of the World are discarded, all characters held are returned to owner’s territory.

That quote comes from a page of "Special Conditions" in the REG that is not accessible (as far as I can tell) from the normal Index on the left.  It only turns up if you search the REG.

Directly above that quote is this one:

Although characters in Goshen or Kingdoms of the World are protected, the Fortress itself is not protected and can be shuffled into the draw pile by A New Beginning.  Any characters inside them are no longer protected and are shuffled into the draw pile as well.

So my questions are:

1)  Do cards that are placed/held on another card follow their holder (lost souls and weapons being the exceptions)?  Or did I make this up?

2)  What is the game rule that causes protected characters in a Fortress to be shuffled by ANB?

3)  Is there an exception to what happens to characters in KotW/Goshen when the Fort is discarded?  If so, why?

Ah, that helps.  Protect is missing the "special conditions" link in the index, which is why I couldn't find it.

At least someone is willing to try to answer.

I hesitated to answer because I don't like this whole situation

KotW says that it protects the ECs inside.  Unless this is negated, then those ECs should not be able to be affected at all.  That means that they shouldn't be discarded or shuffled even if the KotW itself is discarded or shuffled.

The ruling in the past was that the ECs were protected from SAs on cards, but not from game rules, and that the "cards in a fortress follow the fortress" thing was a game rule.  So therefore, ANB shuffles KotW and the game rule shuffles the ECs, without them ever being targeted.  Similarly, the Lord Fights for You discards KotW and the game rule shuffles the ECs, without them ever being targeted.

But I never liked that ruling to begin with.  It goes against common sense about protection.  And SAs on cards supersede game rules all the time, so I still think KotW's protection should save the ECs.  I think that to discard or shuffle ECs in KotW, you must either negate, discard, or shuffle the fortress first, and then play a separate card that would then target the ECs that were now unprotected.  However, I'm going to guess that I will lose this argument just like I did the last time

so the REG quote about discarding KotW is wrong?

I was wondering, if KotW or Goshen gets discarded, so the characters get discarded with it, could I play a heal to save (a) character(s)?

So the quote from the REG about characters in KotW or Goshen being returned to territory is obvioulsy wrong.  Is it left over from an era when that was the rule?

But the REG quote cannot be wrong:

All rulings in the REG are considered Official for tournament play. If there is a discrepancy with the latest edition of the rulebook, the REG overrules the rulebook.  - Rob Anderson

So the REG is "obvioulsy wrong" just because Bryon says:

The default is that cards follow their hosts.

with out any backing?

Yes and No,

Yes the REG is wrong, but No its not just because Byron says so, its because Byron is one of the lead playtesters, and Gabe agrees with him, and not that it matters but so do I.

Ok so the REG is "obvioulsy wrong" just because Bryon says:

The default is that cards follow their hosts.

with out any backing, and Gabe and Red Dragon Thorn agree with him.

I would still like some backing to that statment.

Hey,

So the REG is "obvioulsy wrong" just because Bryon says:

Quote from: Bryon on July 03, 2009, 02:35:48 PM

The default is that cards follow their hosts.

with out any backing?

Look at the first post in this thread.  There are two quotes in it, both from the REG and those two quotes pretty clearly contradict each other.  That is the reason the REG is "obviously wrong."

Bryon was just explaining which one of the two conflicting statements is correct.

An additional point to what Bryon said, Goshen and Kingdoms protect from "harm and effect" both harm and effect in the REG glossary only refer to the abilities of cards and not to game rules.  A New Beginning does not shuffle characters in Goshen or Kingdoms, but it does shuffle Goshen and Kingdoms themselves, which triggers the game rule that says "cards placed on other cards follow the cards they are placed on" and that game rule shuffles the characters inside the fortresses.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

IMO the two quotes do not contradict each other at all.  The quote about ANB seems to say that the fortress, which is not protected, is shuffled into the draw pile at which point the characters loose their protection and are able to be shuffled in by ANB. What am I missing?

All targets are chosen at the same time.  When ANB targets "all cards" for shuffle the characters in KotW/Goshen are protected so they cannot be chosen.  The fact that they're still shuffled is an example that the characters in the fortress follow the fortress.

Hey,

In light of this ruling, is the errata on Vengeance of Eternal Fire wrong when it says "Evil Characters return to owner’s territory."?

If it was play as it would be wrong, since it's errata it can say whatever it wants.  But that errata is a bit suspicious.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

If I was standing in my house, protected from outside influences, would that protection matter if the house was SET on FIRE?

Didn't think so.

The ruling in the past was that the ECs were protected from SAs on cards, but not from game rules, and that the "cards in a fortress follow the fortress" thing was a game rule.  So therefore, ANB shuffles KotW and the game rule shuffles the ECs, without them ever being targeted.  Similarly, the Lord Fights for You discards KotW and the game rule shuffles the ECs, without them ever being targeted.

If a character is "protected from discard" it is protected from discard both by special abilities and by game rules.  If a character is "protected from discard abilities" it is protected from discard by special abilities but not by game rules.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Which is true?