Author Topic: Was this post ever resolved? (Read 8427 times)

The Schaef · « **Reply #25 on:** June 19, 2011, 08:53:03 AM »

But not because it's the same as capture.

His post is the response I would give to your prior post. If a card is already captured, that instant ability is already resolved and you can't protect it anyway. But if an ability is negated, and I play a cannot-be-negated card after it, that card works. Which, incidentally, was an example I used in my post before your post before his post.

redemptioncousin · « **Reply #26 on:** June 19, 2011, 09:34:35 AM »

So we're saying that if an opponent ignores a heretic in battle, then that heretic plays wolves in sheep's clothing, he is no longer ignored (he's not interrupting). Though it may be correct, this really doesn't make much "Redemption sense" to me. Or does this have to do with the fact that Golgotha is an outside ability (not being used by the EC that is being ignored).

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** June 19, 2011, 10:17:17 AM »

Nope, your example is correct. WiSC would counter NNfS played in battle. Stop trying to think of it in terms of negates or protection or other abilities and it will make more sense. CBIg is a fairly new ability (it's been around since AW but nobody's really used it much at all until this season), so it will take a bit of getting used to, but if you tell yourself it's not weird it won't be weird.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #28 on:** June 19, 2011, 01:49:07 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 19, 2011, 10:17:17 AM

Nope, your example is correct. WiSC would counter NNfS played in battle. Stop trying to think of it in terms of negates or protection or other abilities and it will make more sense. CBIg is a fairly new ability (it's been around since AW but nobody's really used it much at all until this season), so it will take a bit of getting used to, but if you tell yourself it's not weird it won't be weird.

It's weird.

However, I think I finally see what y'all are saying. I was trying to think of examples that would make it make more sense. What makes sense to me (and perhaps to Browarod and others who still disagree with the ruling) is the idea of a lone hero starting a RA and being blocked by Emperor Nero. Nero is now immune. However, if the lone hero plays a banding enhancement, then Nero is no longer immune to the first hero, even though the immunity was not negated.

Zebulun would be another example. Zebulun can begin a rescue with the player having 5 cards in hand. The blocking EC could have a toughness of 4 and not be ignored. The rescuing player could play (or otherwise legally remove) 2 cards from hand to ignore the EC in battle. However, the blocking player could play a card that forces the opponent to draw cards back to a hand of 5, and now Zebulun would not be ignoring the EC in battle again. In that regard, ignore and immune are dynamic and can change throughout the battle, without using any interrupts.

Likewise, a character can gain the status of not being ignored, even if he was being ignored, even without an interrupt.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #29 on:** June 19, 2011, 01:59:44 PM »

I like where you are going. You can think of Ignore being dynamic. It constantly looks at the ignored characters to make sure they can still be ignored. If something changes, the ignore status changes. In this case, even though NNfS is still an active ignore, after I place an EE on Golgotha, the ignore status of the battle changes because now my NT EC can not be ignored.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #30 on:** June 19, 2011, 05:42:00 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 19, 2011, 01:49:07 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 19, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
Nope, your example is correct. WiSC would counter NNfS played in battle. Stop trying to think of it in terms of negates or protection or other abilities and it will make more sense. CBIg is a fairly new ability (it's been around since AW but nobody's really used it much at all until this season), so it will take a bit of getting used to, but if you tell yourself it's not weird it won't be weird.

It's weird.

However, I think I finally see what y'all are saying. I was trying to think of examples that would make it make more sense. What makes sense to me (and perhaps to Browarod and others who still disagree with the ruling) is the idea of a lone hero starting a RA and being blocked by Emperor Nero. Nero is now immune. However, if the lone hero plays a banding enhancement, then Nero is no longer immune to the first hero, even though the immunity was not negated.

Zebulun would be another example. Zebulun can begin a rescue with the player having 5 cards in hand. The blocking EC could have a toughness of 4 and not be ignored. The rescuing player could play (or otherwise legally remove) 2 cards from hand to ignore the EC in battle. However, the blocking player could play a card that forces the opponent to draw cards back to a hand of 5, and now Zebulun would not be ignoring the EC in battle again. In that regard, ignore and immune are dynamic and can change throughout the battle, without using any interrupts.

Likewise, a character can gain the status of not being ignored, even if he was being ignored, even without an interrupt.

Finally, an explanation that just makes sense! Thanks, YMT.

browarod · « **Reply #31 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:19:38 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 19, 2011, 01:49:07 PM

It's weird.

However, I think I finally see what y'all are saying. I was trying to think of examples that would make it make more sense. What makes sense to me (and perhaps to Browarod and others who still disagree with the ruling) is the idea of a lone hero starting a RA and being blocked by Emperor Nero. Nero is now immune. However, if the lone hero plays a banding enhancement, then Nero is no longer immune to the first hero, even though the immunity was not negated.

Zebulun would be another example. Zebulun can begin a rescue with the player having 5 cards in hand. The blocking EC could have a toughness of 4 and not be ignored. The rescuing player could play (or otherwise legally remove) 2 cards from hand to ignore the EC in battle. However, the blocking player could play a card that forces the opponent to draw cards back to a hand of 5, and now Zebulun would not be ignoring the EC in battle again. In that regard, ignore and immune are dynamic and can change throughout the battle, without using any interrupts.

Likewise, a character can gain the status of not being ignored, even if he was being ignored, even without an interrupt.

The problem with those examples is that they are different circumstances than NNfS. Zebulun ignores or doesn't ignore based on his own ability, Nero is immune or not immune based on his own ability. Those ongoing abilities have conditions/triggers within themselves that can change during battle, which makes them dynamic. NNfS does not. I play NNfS, I choose an evil brigade in battle to ignore, and that's that. Spices makes my NT females ignore that brigade unconditionally, there's nothing variable or dynamic about it. Ongoing yes, dynamic no.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on June 18, 2011, 07:29:25 PM

The biggest difference between abilities like Capture and Discard and Ignore is that Ignore is ongoing while Capture and Discard are instantaneous, you can't activate abilities until instantaneous ones complete (with the exception of interrupt/negate if you are losing by removal) whereas you can activate abilities after an Ignore ability is active.

Immunity and protection are ongoing, you still need an interrupt/negate to change those. Why is ignore any different?

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on June 18, 2011, 06:20:23 PM

Instead allows you to change what an enhancement does without interrupting/negating.

You are correct. However, Golgotha is not an instead, so it doesn't really change anything in this discussion.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #32 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:30:20 PM »

Ignore is a status. If something about the situation changes (for example, what is being ignored gains a can not be ignored status), the ignore changes even though it was not negated. This is one of the ways it is like immune.

browarod · « **Reply #33 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:36:15 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 19, 2011, 06:30:20 PM

Ignore is a status. If something about the situation changes (for example, what is being ignored gains a can not be ignored status), the ignore changes even though it was not negated. This is one of the ways it is like immune.

I agree with your first and third statements. Your second statement does not agree with your third statement, nor do I agree with it. If I'm unconditionally immune to you (Red Dragon vs a human hero, for example) there is nothing you can do to change that without interrupting or negating Red Dragon's ability. If your hero could somehow gain "cannot be immune to" status, that wouldn't change the fact that Red Dragon is already immune to them. No reason has been given as to why ignore should be treated any differently.

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:40:29 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 06:19:38 PM

Immunity and protection are ongoing, you still need an interrupt/negate to change those. Why is ignore any different?

Quote from: The Schaef on June 18, 2011, 05:32:32 PM

A card with a cannot-be-negated ability can be played before or after the negate without consequence.

How is this different/worse?

browarod · « **Reply #35 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:43:45 PM »

How is that at all the same as this? This discussion is about a status being granted after the fact, not about when something with a status is played.

The Schaef · « **Reply #36 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:47:46 PM »

I don't understand your question. If I play a cannot-be-negated card after a negate ability has taken effect, how is that NOT granting a status after the fact?

browarod · « **Reply #37 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:50:32 PM »

Because it doesn't affect the cards played before it? Faith in Our High Priest doesn't un-negate an enhancement played and negated previous to it.

The Schaef · « **Reply #38 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:55:09 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 06:50:32 PM

Because it doesn't affect the cards played before it? Faith in Our High Priest doesn't un-negate an enhancement played and negated previous to it.

Right, because the card was already played at that time and took whatever effect it was able to take at that time.

As others have pointed out to you, being ignored is a state that can be turned on and off by certain conditions. Being negated is not a state, its an effect that cancels another effect. So your argument about it not giving the card its (negated) effect doesn't apply to this situation.

browarod · « **Reply #39 on:** June 19, 2011, 07:02:10 PM »

My comparison was that a battle where a card is granted "cannot be negated" state after it's already been negated doesn't get changed at all so a battle where a card gains "cannot be ignored" state after it's already being ignored shouldn't either. How exactly does that not apply?

Yes, ignore is a state, I've never denied that. In fact, I've sad as much myself several times now. However, immunity is also a state, protection is also a state, yet neither of those can be changed without interrupting/negating the state-changing ability. Why is ignore different?

The Schaef · « **Reply #40 on:** June 19, 2011, 07:21:15 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 07:02:10 PM

How exactly does that not apply?

Because...

Quote

Yes, ignore is a state, I've never denied that. In fact, I've sad as much myself several times now.

Quote

However, immunity is also a state, protection is also a state, yet neither of those can be changed without interrupting/negating the state-changing ability. Why is ignore different?

This is not about the ignore ability. This is about the cannot-be-ignored ability. Just like cannot-be-negated is not about the negate ability but about what you're applying to the new card. I notice that you changed in mid-stream again, and went from talking about negate back to talking about immune. The fact that negate is not on your list tells you exactly what is different about the two cannot-be-something'd cards.

browarod · « **Reply #41 on:** June 19, 2011, 08:01:57 PM »

I have always held that ignore was a state, and have made my arguments with that in mind, so the fact that ignore is indeed a state, as I've said, doesn't contradict or invalidate anything I've said since I've held that as an understood point.

Wait, so, ignore is a state but cannot be ignored is an ability? How does that work? One would think they'd be opposite ends of the same state spectrum.

Also, if cannot be negated applied to a negated card doesn't change anything, why does cannot be ignored change anything about an ignored card?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #42 on:** June 19, 2011, 08:03:03 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 06:19:38 PM

The problem with those examples is that they are different circumstances than NNfS. Zebulun ignores or doesn't ignore based on his own ability, Nero is immune or not immune based on his own ability. Those ongoing abilities have conditions/triggers within themselves that can change during battle, which makes them dynamic. NNfS does not. I play NNfS, I choose an evil brigade in battle to ignore, and that's that. Spices makes my NT females ignore that brigade unconditionally, there's nothing variable or dynamic about it. Ongoing yes, dynamic no.

If there was a way to change the brigade of a character in battle, would NNfS then be dynamic? The examples I gave are only different because you see them as different. I do not.

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 06:19:38 PM

Immunity and protection are ongoing, you still need an interrupt/negate to change those. Why is ignore any different?

I gave you examples already about how you do not need an interrupt to undo an ignore. You are now choosing not to listen.

The Schaef · « **Reply #43 on:** June 19, 2011, 08:09:58 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 08:01:57 PM

so the fact that ignore is indeed a state, as I've said, doesn't contradict or invalidate anything I've said since I've held that as an understood point.

For the third time, it answers your question about how it's differs from cannot-be-negated.

Quote

Wait, so, ignore is a state but cannot be ignored is an ability? How does that work?

Ignore is an ability that sets the state of being ignored. Cannot-be-ignored is an ability that turns off the state for the cards listed.

Quote

Also, if cannot be negated applied to a negated card doesn't change anything, why does cannot be ignored change anything about an ignored card?

I answered this question already. Please refer to my previous posts.

Master KChief · « **Reply #44 on:** June 19, 2011, 08:30:44 PM »

think of it as a lightswitch. when you are being ignored, the lightswitch is on. cannot be ignored is simply turning the lightswitch off. you do not have to go back in time to turn off the lightswitch.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #45 on:** June 19, 2011, 09:03:33 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on June 19, 2011, 08:30:44 PM

think of it as a lightswitch. when you are being ignored, the lightswitch is on. cannot be ignored is simply turning the lightswitch off. you do not have to go back in time to turn off the lightswitch.

Actually, in my living room, there are two different light switches that affect the same light. So, for this thread's example, I can turn on the light switch in the hallway (turn on ignore). Later, I could turn that light off (cannot be ignored) by flipping the light switch by the couch. The first light switch has not been affected and is in the same position, but it no longer does what I wanted it to do.

browarod · « **Reply #46 on:** June 20, 2011, 12:41:27 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 19, 2011, 08:03:03 PM

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 06:19:38 PM
The problem with those examples is that they are different circumstances than NNfS. Zebulun ignores or doesn't ignore based on his own ability, Nero is immune or not immune based on his own ability. Those ongoing abilities have conditions/triggers within themselves that can change during battle, which makes them dynamic. NNfS does not. I play NNfS, I choose an evil brigade in battle to ignore, and that's that. Spices makes my NT females ignore that brigade unconditionally, there's nothing variable or dynamic about it. Ongoing yes, dynamic no.

If there was a way to change the brigade of a character in battle, would NNfS then be dynamic? The examples I gave are only different because you see them as different. I do not.

Quote from: browarod on June 19, 2011, 06:19:38 PM
Immunity and protection are ongoing, you still need an interrupt/negate to change those. Why is ignore any different?

I gave you examples already about how you do not need an interrupt to undo an ignore. You are now choosing not to listen.

You honestly don't think one card with a condition and one card without a condition are different? If there was a way to convert an EC's brigade, that would not make NNfS dynamic because it would still be sitting there ignoring the brigade I chose. Nothing about NNfS can change, therefore I don't see how it could possibly fit the definition of dynamic. It doesn't take an English degree to see that, so I truthfully don't know how you can say this is just me seeing incorrectly.

What I am choosing to do is attempt to show you that your examples, while correct in and of themselves, do not apply to the issue at hand since they, not in my opinion but in fact, are actually different. If you're so sure that NNfS is dynamic, show me the X in the special ability with a corresponding "X=_____" in the identifier line, show me "as long as", "while", "if used by", or any other words that could mean something about the ability could change at anytime after activation. If you can't, then maybe I'm not the one choosing not to listen. They are good examples, and I'm not arguing your point in general (I completely agree with their use when used appropriately), I'm just trying to show that it doesn't apply to this discussion. I have the utmost respect for your ability to explain things clearly.

Quote from: The Schaef on June 19, 2011, 08:09:58 PM

For the third time, it answers your question about how it's differs from cannot-be-negated.

Ignore is an ability that sets the state of being ignored. Cannot-be-ignored is an ability that turns off the state for the cards listed.

For the umpteenth time, that doesn't actually answer my question. I have provided examples of how other states require interrupts or negates in order to "change the lightswitch" yet you have continued to harp on only the point that ignore and cannot be ignored are states. I know they're states, nobody's disputing that, but that doesn't explain why this and only this state can bypass all other games rules (something not even dominants can do) and be changed (or in the case of the cannot be ignored state: applied) without an interrupt/negate. Captured is a state, immune is a state, cannot be negated is a state, removed from the game is a state, converted is a state, yet none of those can be reversed/applied after another ability has been played without an interrupt or negate. I'm simply wondering why the state of cannot be ignored gets to supersede game rules to do whatever it wants whenever it wants to. That seems overpowered to me, even more so than TGT ever was to begin with. And THAT is the problem I see with the entirety of how "cannot be ignored" as an ability that applies a state functions. Not even dominants are that powerful.

The Schaef · « **Reply #47 on:** June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 20, 2011, 12:41:27 AM

I have provided examples of how other states require interrupts or negates in order to "change the lightswitch"

No, they do not. They require an interrupt or negate to cancel the effect. So does ignore.

"Immune to lone Heroes" does not require an interrupt to change the state of being immune-to'd. If I band in a second Hero, you are no longer immune, and I did not interrupt your ability, I just made it so your condition no longer applied to my character.

Quote

but that doesn't explain why this and only this state can bypass all other games rules (something not even dominants can do)

The only way it "bypasses" the game rule is in the same way cannot-be-negated "bypasses" a negate effect. The cards that cannot be ignored... cannot be ignored.

Oh, and by the way, immune actually does have a counter-effect similar to this. Look for cards like Plague of Frogs or Testing Solomon's Wisdom, that apply an effect "regardless of immunity".

Quote

I'm simply wondering why the state of cannot be ignored gets to supersede game rules to do whatever it wants whenever it wants to.

It's not doing anything different than banding a second Hero against Nero, or converting the brigade of an ignored character (circumstances are narrow but it can be done with current cards). All it's doing is flipping off the switch on the cards under its effect.

Quote

That seems overpowered to me.

The ability to not be affected by a single type of effect? Really?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #48 on:** June 20, 2011, 02:21:21 PM »

Not even Dominants are as powerful as Golgotha? lolwut? You can't seriously think that.

browarod · « **Reply #49 on:** June 20, 2011, 03:03:17 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM

No, they do not. They require an interrupt or negate to cancel the effect. So does ignore.

That's exactly what I'm saying, though. Canceling the effect, or granting a counter-status (not reversing a status, a counter-status) such as becoming immune to an immune or an ignoring character, is the only way to change the current battle outcome of all other states in the game. If I'm immune to you, sure you can play whatever cards you want, they just don't affect the immune character and can't make that character be losing the battle (by special ability) unless you interrupt/negate/regardless the immunity. Ignore creates a similar situation except I don't need to constantly pass initiative for you to continue playing cards, you just get infinite initiative (for whatever reason). If you play something to be immune to my hero ignoring you, yes that changes the battle to a stalemate (because it was ruled that way), but it doesn't change the fact that I'm still ignoring you. If you interrupt the battle and become immune to me, THEN that changes my ignore.

Quote from: The Schaef on June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM

"Immune to lone Heroes" does not require an interrupt to change the state of being immune-to'd. If I band in a second Hero, you are no longer immune, and I did not interrupt your ability, I just made it so your condition no longer applied to my character.

As I've been trying to explain to YMT, that is a completely different scenario. Your conditional immunity can change because, by definition, it has a condition within itself. NNfS has no such condition.

Quote from: The Schaef on June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM

The only way it "bypasses" the game rule is in the same way cannot-be-negated "bypasses" a negate effect. The cards that cannot be ignored... cannot be ignored.

Yet cannot be negated is not able to flip the lightswitch of something already negated, so why can cannot be ignored flip the lightswitch of something already ignored?

Quote from: The Schaef on June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM

Oh, and by the way, immune actually does have a counter-effect similar to this. Look for cards like Plague of Frogs or Testing Solomon's Wisdom, that apply an effect "regardless of immunity".

Do Golgotha or Wolves in Sheep's Clothing say "regardless"? No? Then your example doesn't apply to this situation unless you can cite specific Elder confirmation that Golgotha and Wolves are treated as regardless abilities.

Quote from: The Schaef on June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM

It's not doing anything different than banding a second Hero against Nero, or converting the brigade of an ignored character (circumstances are narrow but it can be done with current cards). All it's doing is flipping off the switch on the cards under its effect.

As I already said, Nero and the like are not the same as this situation, not to mention the fact that still doesn't explain why, as I've been trying to point out but you seem to be glossing over, this ability, and this ability alone, can unflip a lightswitch of an already-played status-granting card that hasn't been negated, interrupted, regardlessed, or insteaded. Nothing else can do that, not even dominants, and THAT is what I find overpowered. Not that a card is a counter to one kind of special ability, that it can bypass rules that have been in place for years that not even the most powerful type of card can bypass.

Quote from: The Schaef on June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM

The ability to not be affected by a single type of effect? Really?

See above and below.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 20, 2011, 02:21:21 PM

Not even Dominants are as powerful as Golgotha? lolwut? You can't seriously think that.

Dominants cannot undo statuses or abilities of other cards or be played after an enhancement to undo that enhancement without interrupting/negating/insteading/regardlessing said enhancement. How is Golgotha NOT more powerful than dominants since it apparently can do all those things when they can't?

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Author Topic: Was this post ever resolved? (Read 8427 times)

The Schaef

browarod

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The Schaef

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The Schaef

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The Schaef

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The Schaef

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The Schaef

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The Schaef

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