Author Topic: Was this post ever resolved? (Read 8428 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** June 16, 2011, 08:25:35 PM »

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/sites-and-lost-souls/120/
5. Can Golgotha stop No Need for Spices after Spices is played?

Golgotha (Di)
Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn.

No Need for Spices (RA)
Special Ability: Negate evil immunity. Female N.T. Heroes ignore one evil brigade in battle.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:48:17 PM »

After RTSM's edit, I'm not sure anymore.

Ironica · « **Reply #2 on:** June 17, 2011, 12:12:31 PM »

Why not?

browarod · « **Reply #3 on:** June 17, 2011, 04:15:43 PM »

My main line of reasoning back then was that Golgotha doesn't interrupt NNfS so even if it grants the EC CBIg status after NNfS is played the EC is already being ignored and the hero winning the battle.

I still hold to this opinion at this time.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #4 on:** June 17, 2011, 05:00:59 PM »

But if Golgotha doesn't work on No Need for Spices why should it work on Garden Tomb? It doesn't interrupt either of those and they only gain the Cannot be Ignored status after they are being ignored.

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** June 17, 2011, 07:44:06 PM »

Because TGT isn't (necessarily) affecting battle outcome, it's affecting who can block. An EC played from hand can block after ET + AoCP decimates your in-play ECs without interrupting AoCP. An EC cannot be played from hand to change the outcome of AoCP played after an EC blocks. An enhancement placed on Golgotha can allow your EC to block without interrupting TGT. I don't see why an enhancement placed on Golgotha after NNfS should undo an ignore played after an EC blocks without interrupting NNfS.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** June 17, 2011, 11:31:40 PM »

Yeah, that didn't make any sense.

@RTSM, CBIg is its own brand of ability, in spite of the muddled "cannot be" phrasing. It's not protection or immunity from being ignored, it's a totally outre ability. All four functions of Ignore pay no attention to and are paid no attention by a CBIg character.

browarod · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2011, 01:35:25 PM »

People complained about ignore being too powerful, but Pol's definition of CBIg is so much worse than ignore ever was. An ability that gets around negates, interrupts, and prevents that can be used anytime you want? That's like the definition of overpowered.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 17, 2011, 11:31:40 PM

Yeah, that didn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense if you're willing to think about it.

Smokey · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2011, 01:41:02 PM »

Ignore is op, but the counter to ignore is more op... wat.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2011, 01:48:43 PM »

Well, I don't agree with people that said ignore (as an ability) was too powerful, so the fact that CBIg is apparently uber powerful seems like a thousand-foot-thick wall to stop one 9mm bullet. Pre-block ignore was bad, yes, but even that doesn't deserve CBIg being outside all other game rules. They could have made CBIg work against pre-block ignore without neutering in-battle ignores (which were perfectly balanced), so is it so wrong for me to hope they can rule Golgotha that way?

Josh · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2011, 02:03:09 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 18, 2011, 01:48:43 PM

Well, I don't agree with people that said ignore (as an ability) was too powerful, so the fact that CBIg is apparently uber powerful seems like a thousand-foot-thick wall to stop one 9mm bullet. Pre-block ignore was bad, yes, but even that doesn't deserve CBIg being outside all other game rules. They could have made CBIg work against pre-block ignore without neutering in-battle ignores (which were perfectly balanced), so is it so wrong for me to hope they can rule Golgotha that way?

How could they have neutered preblock ignore without touching in-battle ignore? They are the exact same thing. The only difference is, if you are preblock ignored, you are not allowed to add a character to battle to negate the ignore ability. If you happen to have a character already in battle when the ignore happens, you are fortunate enough to have a chance to negate it or play some other enhancement to stop the rescue.

CBIg is not OP. It only counters a very small percentage of offensive battlewinners. If you make a deck that cannot win if your opponent has ignore counters, then I would argue that your deck is too one-dimensional. If you make a one-dimensional deck, you need to accept that your deck has an inherent "riskiness" to it. People who make FBTN or FBTNB decks risk facing Holy of Holies, Golden Calf, Confusion of Mind, Asherah Pole, Household Idols, The Trap of the Devil, etc. Are all cards that hard-counter an offensive strategy OP?

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2011, 02:09:59 PM »

some are. tgt was a hard counter to splash defenses.

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2011, 02:24:39 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on June 18, 2011, 02:03:09 PM

Are all cards that hard-counter an offensive strategy OP?

If they ignore (irony intended) all other game rules, then yes.

Josh · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2011, 03:08:21 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 18, 2011, 02:24:39 PM

Quote from: jmhartz on June 18, 2011, 02:03:09 PM
Are all cards that hard-counter an offensive strategy OP?
If they ignore (irony intended) all other game rules, then yes.

But CBIg doesn't ignore game rules. Think about it this way. Each special ability (capture something, discard something, negate something, ignore something, etc) has an unwritten clause that says "...except targets that cannot be captured/discarded/negated/ignored)".

Bringing Fear says "Negate all special abilities on characters and good enhancements", but what it really means is "Negate all special abilities on characters and good enhancements, except abilities that cannot be negated". That's why Bringing Fear won't negate Zeal for the Lord if it is played on Phinehas or Josh the HP.

Zeal for the Lord says "Interrupt the battle and discard two evil characters of different brigades", but what it really means is "Interrupt the battle and discard two evil characters of different brigades, except characters that cannot be discarded (i.e., protected from discard)". That's why Zeal won't discard Judas Iscariot.

No Need for Spices says "Ignore one evil brigade in battle", but what it really means is "Ignore one brigade in battle, except characters that cannot be ignored". That's why NNFS won't ignore Persians when Haman's Gallows is in play, or a character with Hating the Light placed on it, or any NT evil character when Golgotha has an EE placed on it.

The word "cannot" in a special ability has been played this way ever since CBN was created. Ignore abilities are not the same ability as negate or discard, but when it comes to the word "cannot", why would it be any different?

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** June 18, 2011, 05:22:13 PM »

If Golgotha already has an enhancement on it when I play NNfS I would agree with you, but that's not what I'm talking about. If Golgotha does NOT have an enhancement so ECs do NOT have CBIg already is the situation I'm referring to.

Once an enhancement is played, nothing can change what it does unless you interrupt/negate the enhancement. If I capture you or remove you or return you to hand/deck, you can't undo that unless you interrupt/negate. I don't see why Golgotha can undo an ignore without interrupting/negating NNfS.

The Schaef · « **Reply #15 on:** June 18, 2011, 05:32:32 PM »

A card with a cannot-be-negated ability can be played before or after the negate without consequence.

How is this different/worse?

Josh · « **Reply #16 on:** June 18, 2011, 06:19:24 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 18, 2011, 05:22:13 PM

If Golgotha already has an enhancement on it when I play NNfS I would agree with you, but that's not what I'm talking about. If Golgotha does NOT have an enhancement so ECs do NOT have CBIg already is the situation I'm referring to.

Once an enhancement is played, nothing can change what it does unless you interrupt/negate the enhancement. If I capture you or remove you or return you to hand/deck, you can't undo that unless you interrupt/negate. I don't see why Golgotha can undo an ignore without interrupting/negating NNfS.

Like I said, you need to think of NNFS with a "...except evil characters that cannot be ignored" clause. Putting an EE on Golgotha does not undo/negate the ignore. MMoJ/Salome & company will still ignore OT ECs. It just means NT ECs of the color EE can't be ignored.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #17 on:** June 18, 2011, 06:20:23 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 18, 2011, 05:22:13 PM

Once an enhancement is played, nothing can change what it does unless you interrupt/negate the enhancement. If I capture you or remove you or return you to hand/deck, you can't undo that unless you interrupt/negate. I don't see why Golgotha can undo an ignore without interrupting/negating NNfS.

Instead allows you to change what an enhancement does without interrupting/negating.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** June 18, 2011, 07:22:26 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on June 18, 2011, 03:08:21 PM

But CBIg doesn't ignore game rules. Think about it this way. Each special ability (capture something, discard something, negate something, ignore something, etc) has an unwritten clause that says "...except targets that cannot be captured/discarded/negated/ignored)".

The targets for the ignore were already chosen. By your logic, think of it this way:

"Golgotha targets certain characters to not be ignored, except those targets that are already being ignored."

If I play a capture card in battle, then you somehow activated a new card that says, "My characters cannot be captured," that would not stop the capture that activated before you played your new card. I agree with Browarod that if the original SA is not being interrupted, then the targetted characters cannot gain a status that they did not already have.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2011, 07:29:25 PM »

The biggest difference between abilities like Capture and Discard and Ignore is that Ignore is ongoing while Capture and Discard are instantaneous, you can't activate abilities until instantaneous ones complete (with the exception of interrupt/negate if you are losing by removal) whereas you can activate abilities after an Ignore ability is active.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** June 18, 2011, 07:45:17 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on June 18, 2011, 07:29:25 PM

The biggest difference between abilities like Capture and Discard and Ignore is that Ignore is ongoing while Capture and Discard are instantaneous, you can't activate abilities until instantaneous ones complete (with the exception of interrupt/negate if you are losing by removal) whereas you can activate abilities after an Ignore ability is active.

Then why does Immune not work after an Ignore, but it does work before the Ignore? Clearly there is a difference between cards played before and after an Ignore.

The Schaef · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2011, 10:02:30 PM »

An ignored character already is not affected by the ignoring character. Immune after ignore has no net effect.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2011, 10:14:36 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on June 18, 2011, 10:02:30 PM

An ignored character already is not affected by the ignoring character. Immune after ignore has no net effect.

I was responding to ChristianSoldier to show that ongoing vs. instant abilities is not the issue here.

You can respond to my post before ChristianSoldier's, if you wish.

The Schaef · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2011, 10:51:16 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 18, 2011, 10:14:36 PM

I was responding to ChristianSoldier to show that ongoing vs. instant abilities is not the issue here.

You can respond to my post before ChristianSoldier's, if you wish.

I'm not in a particular hurry to respond to his post because I don't see a fault in his logic. There is a fault in your counter-example, though, because it is not that immune CANNOT do anything, it's just that its effect DOES nothing.

Your question "why" has an answer which does not disprove his point. The example I provided, the behavior of cannot-be-negated cards, also works when played after an active ongoing ability has taken effect. But a cannot-be-interrupted card would not work against a particular interrupt if it were possible to play it after that interrupt had already been played, because the interrupt effect ends when the ability is resolved.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** June 19, 2011, 08:46:00 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on June 18, 2011, 10:51:16 PM

I'm not in a particular hurry to respond to his post because I don't see a fault in his logic.

I meant my post before his.

Quote from: The Schaef on June 18, 2011, 10:51:16 PM

There is a fault in your counter-example, though, because it is not that immune CANNOT do anything, it's just that its effect DOES nothing.

I fail to see the difference. The opponent tries to play an immunity card, and it doesn't work. The point is that trying to play a card that works against an ignore after the ignore has been played does nothing.

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Author Topic: Was this post ever resolved? (Read 8428 times)

Ironica

browarod

browarod

browarod

browarod

browarod

browarod

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef