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Tartaros was already active before Wandering Spirit enters battle, so the demon goes to Tartaros, if you played Grapes. If your opponent plays Grapes, then the demon would go beneath deck.

One opinion from one side, one opinion from the other.

Hooray for nobody agreeing!

Although Tartaros was active first, I'm pretty sure Wandering Spirit's ability happens first. Mostly a hunch, but it could be the difference between "if your demon is discarded" and "all demons that holder discards."

er, thestrongangel, I think you just agreed with me?

Wandering Spirit is a replacement effect, so when you discard him, Wandering spirit tells you that instead of discarding him to place him on the bottom of your deck.

Aren't both WS and Tartaros "replacement effects"? One says that after it's discarded it's placed beneath deck, the other says after it's discarded it's placed in Tartaros. Wouldn't you just be able to choose which of the two effects you wanted to use?

If two replacement effects are in conflict, the first active is followed.

Ah, yes; my bad. At least I was right about both being replacement effects

Tartaros says if you discard or capture a demon, place it here.  So If you do A (capture or discard)  then do B (place that card in Tartaros).

Wandering spirit says if a demon is discarded, place it on bottom of your deck instead.  Key word is bolded.  While WS's ability is active, a discard effect activated by you never truly discards the demon, but placed it on the bottom of your deck, while Tartaros only checks to see if you discarded or captured a demon, and if so then put on this fortress.

If you're going to nitpick semantics.... Abilities always finish and complete and then they are redirected and/or negated as the case may be.

WS says if a demon is discarded it goes under the deck instead of the discard pile. The bolded confirms that it does indeed get discarded, it just goes to a different place afterwards. Same with Tartaros. Both cards activate when a card is discarded. Neither un-discards the card, they just change where it goes after it's discarded.

Again, this is a confusing of two seperate and non-congruent effects.

WS says when being discarded, do this (place on bottom of deck) instead.  Whereas Tartaros triggers from the act of being discarded, and the evil character is treated as a discarded EC all the way.

The hitch here comes when WS changes the outcome of the discarding effect.  The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile.  Therefore when Tartaros checks for discarded demons, it would find none, because the effect happening to the demon is no longer a discard effect.

Tartaros and WS would both check simultaneously for discarded demons since they both have the same condition (a demon that is discarded). As such, Bryon's statement then comes in where whichever one was in play first gets to overrule the other(s) and do it's thing.

Quote from: thestrongangel on October 13, 2009, 08:42:45 PM

Again, this is a confusing of two seperate and non-congruent effects.

WS says when being discarded, do this (place on bottom of deck) instead.  Whereas Tartaros triggers from the act of being discarded, and the evil character is treated as a discarded EC all the way.

The hitch here comes when WS changes the outcome of the discarding effect.  The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile.  Therefore when Tartaros checks for discarded demons, it would find none, because the effect happening to the demon is no longer a discard effect.

Tartaros and WS would both check simultaneously for discarded demons since they both have the same condition (a demon that is discarded). As such, Bryon's statement then comes in where whichever one was in play first gets to overrule the other(s) and do it's thing.

Again, your ignoring the fact that WS changes the outcome of the battle.  Tartaros says this:  All demons that holder captures, discards, or has in Land of Bondage are placed in Tartaros.  In order for the demon to go there, it must be discarded.  WS sets up an ongoing effect that says any demon that is discarded get placed on the bottom of the deck instead.  Granted, this only happens when WS is in battle.  But simply put, when a discard ability is being completed against a demon with WS in battle, the discard effect never ends up discarding the demon.  Tartaros says that a demon must be discarded.

WS says: If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead.  So, in essence this is what this looks like:

Normal situation:  You discard a demon, demon goes to discard pile.

Tartaros in play:  You discard a demon, it goes to your Tartaros.

WS in battle:  You discard a demon, it goes beneath deck instead of being discarded.

Both WS and Tartaros:  You play an ability to discard a demon.  WS's effect changes the discard ability to place the demon beneath the deck.  Because the demon was not ever discarded, the demon cannot be placed on Tartaros.

Quote from: thestrongangel on October 13, 2009, 08:42:45 PM

The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile.

The ability is not being changed, just the destination. This is still a discard ability.

The discard ability is not changed, but the outcome is changed.  Tartaros checks to see if a character was discarded, which it cannot be discarded until after an ability completes.  WS is saying to do B (place beneath deck)  instead of doing A (discard demon).  Again, not that the ability affecting the demon is changed, but the outcome is changed.  The demon is not discarded, but placed beneath deck when the discard ability is completed.

Hey,

The only reason Wandering Spirit says instead and Tartaros doesn't is because Tartaros was printed before the playtesters started emphasizing the use of instead and Wandering Spirit was printed after.  I agree with Bryon.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Hey,

The only reason Wandering Spirit says instead and Tartaros doesn't is because Tartaros was printed before the playtesters started emphasizing the use of instead and Wandering Spirit was printed after.  I agree with Bryon.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

If that is the case, then it needs to have a play as wording.  As it currently stands, how I have laid out the abilities is how it would go.

Hey,

Play As is never "needed" because it doesn't actually change anything, it just makes things easier to understand.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly