Author Topic: Wandering Spirit Questions (Read 6934 times)

Bobbobowitz · « **on:** July 03, 2012, 12:39:18 AM »

So since the cannot be negated clause is at the end of the ability and not attached to any part of the ability that means that the whole ability is CBN?

And the "If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead." Means all demons being discarded as long as Wandering spirit is in battle are placed under deck instead correct? And does this override Tartaros?

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, put it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, place it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is being discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Luke 11:24 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: All demons that holder captures, discards, or has in Land of Bondage are placed in Tartaros. Release one demon to holder's territory from Tartaros when one of holder's demons wins in battle. • Play As: All demons that holder captures, discards, or has in Land of Bondage are held in Tartaros instead. Return one demon to holder's territory from Tartaros when one of holder's demons wins in battle. Tartaros may hold any number of demons. • Identifiers: Play to set-aside area. • Verse: II Peter 2:4 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Uncommon)

megamanlan · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2012, 05:26:01 AM »

Q1. Yes, the entire effect is CBN (vs. Joseph which only the giving Enhancements CBN stats is CBN)

Q2. No, unless it states while in play, then it only works in battle.

Q3. Yes, because Tartoros would take it there, then Wandering Spirit's effect would kick in and toss it under Deck.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2012, 12:11:25 PM »

Gotta love WS. He is one of my favorite ECs.

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2012, 03:03:21 PM »

Some clarifications needed. Q1 and Q3 are correct in Megamanlan's posts, however:

Quote from: megamanlan on July 03, 2012, 05:26:01 AM

Q2. No, unless it states while in play, then it only works in battle.

This is incorrect. If a card does not specify, then it actually defaults to play, not battle. WS does not specify, and therefore any of 'your' demons that are discarded during the battle phase that the SA is active would be put beneath deck.

For example, if you have a demon banding chain in battle and your opponent uses Ehud's Dagger to snipe the KoT in your territory, it is placed beneath your deck.

Note, however, that this does lead to some interesting situations. First, if you band to your opponent's demon (or one you control but do not own), then it does not go to the bottom of the owner's deck if discarded because WS specifies 'yours', which requires both ownership and control.

Second, cards like Grapes cannot be used if you target your own demon with them. If there is a discard cost (like Grapes which says "discard an evil card in battle to shuffle..."), then the instead on WS makes it not actually happen, and therefore the cost is not paid. The demon would still go to the bottom of deck (since the discard was insteaded), but the shuffle would not happen. A similar situation would be Chamber of Angels if you need a ruling confirmation on that.

And yes, it is a fun card

megamanlan · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2012, 03:27:09 PM »

I believe he was asking if the effect can be used if WS is not in battle.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2012, 03:29:35 PM »

Quote from: Bobbobowitz on July 03, 2012, 12:39:18 AM

And the "If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead." Means all demons being discarded as long as Wandering spirit is in battle are placed under deck instead correct? And does this override Tartaros?

He did specify that he was asking 'while it is in battle', but I can see where that could be misread.

Chris · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2012, 03:46:36 PM »

I believe the question was simple misinterpretation. Wandering Spirit does not have to be in battle for the demons to go under, however, he must have been in battle at some point during that battle phase (so his ability could activate), and it only works during that battle phase.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2012, 03:56:03 PM »

I don't understand why the demon would not go to Tartaros. You can only instead the discard once. The demon was about to be discarded, but it goes to Tartaros instead. That means it is not being discarded, so WS's ability does not activate.

Chris · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2012, 03:59:03 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 03, 2012, 03:56:03 PM

I don't understand why the demon would not go to Tartaros. You can only instead the discard once. The demon was about to be discarded, but it goes to Tartaros instead. That means it is not being discarded, so WS's ability does not activate.

Despite the play-as, I don't believe Tartaros is an instead. If a demon is discarded (or whatever else), then they go to Tartaros afterwards. Wandering Spirit however, does use an instead, so Tartaros doesn't activate due to the fact that the demon was never discarded.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2012, 04:03:34 PM »

This is a case where the Play As is correct in doing its job, which is explaining how Apostles cards work and how they would be worded if printed today. I agree with YMT that Tartaros would activate first. WS is powerful enough as it is, I don't mind seeing Tartaros being used as an effective counter.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2012, 04:41:03 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 03, 2012, 04:03:34 PM

This is a case where the Play As is correct in doing its job, which is explaining how Apostles cards work and how they would be worded if printed today. I agree with YMT that Tartaros would activate first.

I know that there is (or should be) an order of "which cards activate first" in this type of situation, but where is it? Where do we have it ruled that fortresses take precedent over characters or enhancements?

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 03, 2012, 04:03:34 PM

WS is powerful enough as it is, I don't mind seeing Tartaros being used as an effective counter.

Are we ruling here that it is that way, or because we like an effective counter?

TimMierz · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2012, 07:46:58 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 04:41:03 PM

I know that there is (or should be) an order of "which cards activate first" in this type of situation, but where is it? Where do we have it ruled that fortresses take precedent over characters or enhancements?

Raider's Camp is a prominent example of this. Wherever it would go, Raider's Camp gets the captured Hero instead.

Maynid · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2012, 08:11:13 PM »

Does it make any difference that Tartaros specifies demons that "holder" discards, meaning that if your opponent discards it then it does not go to Tartaros?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2012, 08:26:11 PM »

Quote from: Maynid on July 03, 2012, 08:11:13 PM

Does it make any difference that Tartaros specifies demons that "holder" discards, meaning that if your opponent discards it then it does not go to Tartaros?

I think that was the point of Tartaros being a counter. If you discard your opponent's Wandering Spirirt, then it goes to your Tartaros, rather than the bottom of their deck. In effect, you are taking control of their demons.

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2012, 09:54:49 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 03, 2012, 08:26:11 PM

Quote from: Maynid on July 03, 2012, 08:11:13 PM
Does it make any difference that Tartaros specifies demons that "holder" discards, meaning that if your opponent discards it then it does not go to Tartaros?

I think that was the point of Tartaros being a counter. If you discard your opponent's Wandering Spirirt, then it goes to your Tartaros, rather than the bottom of their deck. In effect, you are taking control of their demons.

Well, obviously it wasn't designed as a counter to WS unless someone went back in time

However, I'm still questioning where the rule is that fortresses take precedence over characters (or vice versa), and what takes effect first as far as those cards and who owns them (for instance, if it is your Tartaros or your opponent's, or your own character or your opponents).

This needs to be specified, and I've not seen it before.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:05:27 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 09:54:49 PM

Well, obviously it wasn't designed as a counter to WS unless someone went back in time

I was referring to ProfAlstad's quote.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 09:54:49 PM

However, I'm still questioning where the rule is that fortresses take precedence over characters (or vice versa), and what takes effect first as far as those cards and who owns them (for instance, if it is your Tartaros or your opponent's, or your own character or your opponents).

This needs to be specified, and I've not seen it before.

The rule is that the first ability activated takes precedence. Fortresses are in effect from the moment they enter play, so a previously activated fortress will usually take precedence over an enhancement or character. That is why Dungeon of Malchiah does not work as a LS generator if you have Raider's Camp active.

megamanlan · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:11:42 PM »

wait, if Tartoros is not an instead, doesn't it limit to play (or Discard Pile) and the instead would stop the Discard so WS would drop under Deck before Tartoros could target it and so cannot target a Demon if it under a deck?

CJSports · « **Reply #17 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:13:24 PM »

No because Tartaros activated first because it came into play first.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:13:26 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on July 03, 2012, 10:11:42 PM

wait, if Tartoros is not an instead, doesn't it limit to play (or Discard Pile) and the instead would stop the Discard so WS would drop under Deck before Tartoros could target it and so cannot target a Demon if it under a deck?

Tartaros is an instead.

Redoubter · « **Reply #19 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:15:48 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 03, 2012, 10:05:27 PM

The rule is that the first ability activated takes precedence. Fortresses are in effect from the moment they enter play, so a previously activated fortress will usually take precedence over an enhancement or character. That is why Dungeon of Malchiah does not work as a LS generator if you have Raider's Camp active.

So, you're trying to say that we must keep track of whose Tartaros hits play first if we're both using it, and that's the one that takes effect in this case? Also, what if WS was put in territory before any Tartaros was played? That there is no actual order of precedence between different kinds of cards, and which player's triggers first based on the turn? That things are arbitrary and cumbersome more often than not?

...sorry, forgot I was on the Redemption boards for a minute, I guess everything is normal

In all seriousness, I believe I saw an order of triggers, but I (of course) have not had a successful search for it work.

Quote from: megamanlan on July 03, 2012, 10:11:42 PM

wait, if Tartoros is not an instead, doesn't it limit to play (or Discard Pile) and the instead would stop the Discard so WS would drop under Deck before Tartoros could target it and so cannot target a Demon if it under a deck?

I believe it is an instead (I know Chris doesn't agree) based on the wording. Basically "if you would do one of these things, it goes to Tartaros instead of where it was intended" is what it means, and it is an instead. Also, cards leaving play can still be targeted by an instead (see: Assyrian Survivor). The main thing is which triggers first, WS's instead or Tartaros's instead.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:18:49 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:15:48 PM

That things are arbitrary and cumbersome more often than not?

I fail to see how "first come, first served" is arbitrary and cumbersome. That seems much easier than having an heirarchy of ability types.

Redoubter · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:20:35 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 03, 2012, 10:18:49 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:15:48 PM
That things are arbitrary and cumbersome more often than not?

I fail to see how "first come, first served" is arbitrary and cumbersome. That seems much easier than having an heirarchy of ability types.

Then what if I put WS in play before you put Tartaros is put in play, or at some point Tartaros is negated, etc. etc.

Or what if we can't remember who put Tartaros in play first?

That's why you need a hard-and-fast rule on what triggers first.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:25:02 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:20:35 PM

Then what if I put WS in play before you put Tartaros is put in play, or at some point Tartaros is negated,...

WS wins in both cases.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:20:35 PM

etc. etc.

You'll have to be more specific.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:20:35 PM

Or what if we can't remember who put Tartaros in play first?

Pay more attention during your games. Otherwise RPS or roll the dice.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:20:35 PM

That's why you need a hard-and-fast rule on what triggers first.

First come, first served. Negate does what negate has always done.

Redoubter · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:29:19 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 03, 2012, 10:25:02 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:20:35 PM
Then what if I put WS in play before you put Tartaros is put in play, or at some point Tartaros is negated,...

WS wins in both cases.

...

Pay more attention during your games. Otherwise RPS or roll the dice.

I don't think I'm the only person who finds it to be a problem that we have to keep track of what cards hit play in what order. And saying that it is not going to happen when you're paying attention is completely silly. I know every single experienced player I have ever played with has made a mistake or forgotten something, and I wouldn't believe you if you told me you never had.

If we have to roll a die to decide which ability wins, we have a problem with game rules.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** July 03, 2012, 10:51:04 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 03, 2012, 10:29:19 PM

If we have to roll a die to decide which ability wins, we have a problem with game rules.

The dice roll is just for those people who forgot to pay attention.

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Author Topic: Wandering Spirit Questions (Read 6934 times)

Chris

Chris