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So here's a (hopefully) quick question.  Let's say I have Tower of Thebez occupied with uzzah in my territory, so tower is not actively negating heroes, because I have one non-Canaanite EC.  My opponent makes a rescue attempt with Abigail, so lost souls are protected from my evil cards.  I block with uzzah and discard him and an artifact to activate his ability.  Because all my ECs are now Canaanites, tower's ability goes off and negates Abigail.  Does this allow Uzzah's protection (which the lost souls were previously protected from) to now protect the LSs from rescue?  I believe the answer would be yes because Abigail's ability was negated, the only reason I'm not sure is because Uzzah's ability has to complete before the negation of tower activated.

Tower of Thebez (RA2)

Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: While occupied and all your Evil Characters are Canaanites, negate Heroes. Protect contents from opponents. If attacked, you may return a card from here to territory. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Judges 9:51
Abigail (RA2)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 4 / 12 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may draw X (limit 3). Protect characters in your territory and Lost Souls in opponent's territory from evil cards. May band to David. • Identifiers: OT Female Human, Israel, Royalty, X = the number of your O.T. Warrior Class Heroes. • Verse: I Samuel 25:32

Uzzah's ability doesn't end the battle, only end the battle cards do. I can't remember the specifics of the recent (2-3 months ago) question on Iron Pan and Bel's Banquet on the only Bab in play, and I can't find that thread easily on this computer (it's a slow one in my lab), but this question is similar. If the result of that thread was that Iron Pan turned off upon the discard of the Babylonian then BB worked, then I would say that Uzzah's protection would work. If the result was that Iron Pan turned off after BB completed, then I would say that Uzzah's protection wouldn't work; the reasoning is that until Tower begins negating Abigail, Uzzah cannot target the LS's for protection, then by the time Abby is negated, Uzzah was never able to target them and is now discarded.

If someone can find that thread, that will be the answer.

After thinking about it, I agree with Redoubter, due to the ongoing (as opposed to instant) nature of Uzzah's ability.

Tower of Thebez (RA2)
Special Ability: While occupied and all your Evil Characters are Canaanites, negate Heroes. Protect contents from opponents. If attacked, you may return a card from here to territory.

At no point diring this senario are both conditions met at the same time. Once Uzzah blocks, it is no longer occupied.

Uzzah isn't the card occupying Tower of Thebez.  He can't.  It holds black Canaanites. 

I would say that Uzzah doesn't protect the Lost Souls in this case:

The reasoning for Iron Pan + BB is that even though Iron Pan is continuously checking, it can't change during the resolution of an ability. It would be similar in this case, and the continuous vs instant shouldn't make a difference because once the targets have been chosen (in this case none that matter) they can't get re chosen even if the protection is negated.

At least that's how I would think it should work.

Once Abigail is negated, the protection she provided the LS is completely undone, never existing.  Not being negated or protected from, the ongoing protection of Uzzah is able to protect the LS now.

I'm not sure this is right.

Imagine I attack with Moses (negate everything) and am blocked with Uzzah and then somehow Moses gets negated later in the battle.  At that point Uzzah's ability does NOT kick back in because abilities that don't go off when they are played don't kick in later right?

Similarly if Uzzah can't target the LSs for protection due to Abigail, then he is NOT allowed to re-target later when Abigail gets negated, right?

1. I RA with hero.
2. Opponent blocks with Uzzah and activates the protection.
3. I Burial his only LS, then play Harvest Time.

Would the new LS brought in by HT be protected from rescue by Uzzah's ongoing ability?

I think this also goes back to the targeting issue.  Uzzah's protection targeted the LSs in play at the time.  He can't go back and re-target the new LS pulled out with HT can he?

Imagine I attack with Moses (negate everything) and am blocked with Uzzah and then somehow Moses gets negated later in the battle.  At that point Uzzah's ability does NOT kick back in because abilities that don't go off when they are played don't kick in later right?

You used a completely different example.  Protection and negation are two completely different things, and the situations are not comparable.

Similarly if Uzzah can't target the LSs for protection due to Abigail, then he is NOT allowed to re-target later when Abigail gets negated, right?

That is correct, cards target and attempt to activate only once in the case of instant abilities.

I think this also goes back to the targeting issue.  Uzzah's protection targeted the LSs in play at the time.  He can't go back and re-target the new LS pulled out with HT can he?

And here is where both of your arguments hit a wall:  Protection is an ongoing ability.  And in fact, it is constantly updating and re-targeting.  To prove my point, let's use Miraculous Handkerchiefs.

Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes in holder's territory and set-aside areas cannot be discarded. Effects of enhancement cards, poisons, and diseases are delayed until Miraculous Handkerchiefs is removed. • Play As: Protect all Heroes in holder's territory and set-aside area from discard. Suspend the effect of ongoing abilities that have a negative effect on those Heroes until this card is deactivated.

This protect ability does not just protect characters who were in territory when it activated.  If I activate it and then place another hero in play during Discard Phase, they are not excluded from the protection.  Rather, the protection updates to include that hero.  Would you argue otherwise?

Let's use Abigail to make this even more clear:  If she enters battle and then you play Harvest Time to search out a Lost Soul, are you arguing that soul is not protected by her?  Of course it is, that's the nature of protection.  It updates continuously.


As far as the comparison to Iron Pan, this case is actually completely different.  I now remember why it was ruled that it negated Banquet: It continuously checks, but cannot update during an ability.  So when the Bab is discarded, the Banquet protection is still negated.  And even though Iron Pan then shuts off, it is not negated.  That is the difference in this case.

So where Abigail being negated allows for the ongoing protection of Uzzah to protect the Lost Souls, Banquet's ability is still negated as far as the protection.

Actually, I think you're wrong about the Iron Pan ruling. I remember it being that ongoing checks are truly dynamic, even in the middle of other abilities.

Regardless, you're missing the fact that abilities that are prevented when played do not reactivate as part of the negate cascade. If I play Protection of Angels on TSA, then you play CWD as an Enhancement, the protection from PoJ does not retroactively take effect. It's the same here, Uzzah's Protect was negated when played.

Now, that was from your perspective of cards not updating in the middle of other cards. If I am correct about that ruling, then Uzzah's protect would not have been Negated at the time of its use (since Tower updated in between his Discard and Protect) and would therefore work. So you're either right about which way the Iron Pan ruling went or you're right about how to rule this situation, but not both.

Conditions do NOT have to wait for active special abilities to finish.  Conditions are always checking for an ongoing state and always result in ongoing abilities ("while X is true, give ongoing effect Y").

Card                       Trigger         Effect             Ability to insert during SAs
Unknown Nation       Manual        Instant            No, never for triggered abilities
Gates of Samaria     Automatic    Instant            No, never for triggered abilities
Bearing Bad News     Automatic    Ongoing          No, never for triggered abilities
Iron Pan                 none           Ongoing          Yes, it updates constantly

OK, so based on that, Tower is a condition (which means that it updates even in the middle of SAs), and both Abigail and Uzzah are NOT.

So here's how I see it at this point:
1 - Uzzah is in play so Tower is NOT negating Abigail when she attacks and protects LSs
2 - Uzzah blocks and discards himself to protect LSs
     2b - during that SA, Tower kicks in and negates Abigail so that LSs CAN be targeted
     2c - Uzzah IS now able to target them LSs to protect them from rescue
3 - Abigail wins the battle challenge, but does NOT get a LS

Does that look right to everyone?

Regardless, you're missing the fact that abilities that are prevented when played do not reactivate as part of the negate cascade. If I play Protection of Angels on TSA, then you play CWD as an Enhancement, the protection from PoJ does not retroactively take effect. It's the same here, Uzzah's Protect was negated when played.

Okay, seriously, why does everyone continue to try and compare negation to protection?

Abigail DOES NOT negate Uzzah.  Does not.  Any examples that involve negating Uzzah do not apply.  Even if they did, it is an ongoing ability.  Ongoing =/ Instant.  Ongoing abilities that are un-negated continue.

Actually, I think you're wrong about the Iron Pan ruling. I remember it being that ongoing checks are truly dynamic, even in the middle of other abilities.

Actually, Underwood gave us the ruling that it still negated Banquet, as it was active during the ability and didn't check until after it completed:

As promised, we now have an official ruling on this.

Basically what it means for this particular issue is that Iron Pan will activate (even during the short time that Neb is in battle before he is discarded by Bel's Banquet), and therefore it would negate the protect part of Bel's Banquet.

So you don't want to do that

So we may need clarity on that.  If it actually updates during an ability, Prof U will have to update the Banquet ruling.  If they don't, then this is the actual situation:

1 - Uzzah is in play so Tower is NOT negating Abigail when she attacks and protects LSs
2 - Uzzah blocks and discards himself to protect LSs
     2b - Tower kicks in after the SA and negates Abigail so that LSs CAN be protected by an evil card
     2c - Uzzah's protection (being ongoing and continuously updated as I showed in previous examples) protects all LS in play
3 - Abigail wins the battle challenge, but does NOT get a LS

Quote from: Drrek on July 23, 2012, 04:40:25 PM

So here's a (hopefully) quick question.

Just a reminder that this was the first line in this thread. 

When my brother thinks up a ruling situation, he's just praying that's the case.  It never is and he knows it.

My only error was mistaking Abigail's ability. I got everything else right. It always amuses me when people start posts with "I disagree!" then agree.

I still disagree with you that protection does not reactivate when a negate is undone, as it is ongoing.  I pointed out examples that show that protection is continuous and constantly updating.

I also pointed out that your assertion that abilities activate during other abilities was contradicted by Prof U in the Banquet vs Iron Pan thread.  Not that I necessarily agree with it, but that is the current ruling.

And as far as the last statement of your post, that I could only be right about the Iron Pan ruling or this ruling, I have shown support for both of my assertions (that it was ruled Iron Pan negated Banquet when used on the last Bab, and that Uzzah can protect LS in this situation) being correct, especially as they do not directly apply to each other.

TL;DR I disagree!

In the steps before, step 2a shouldn't allow Uzzah to target the souls. Thus, when 2c occurs, Uzzah's ongoing ability reactivates, but can't choose a new target, so it does nothing.

The thing is that 2a, b, and c all really happen at the same time.  So WHILE Uzzah is trying to do his SA the Tower kicks in and negates Abigail.  Since this happens DURING Uzzah's SA, Uzzah is still able to target the LSs.