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Author Topic: Urim and Thummim question  (Read 1551 times)

Offline jbeers285

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Urim and Thummim question
« on: April 18, 2013, 03:24:20 PM »
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U&T
On activation if you have a high priest in play or set aside, look at one opponent's hand. You may then deactivate this artifact and activate a different artifact.


is the deactivate and activate cost and effect? I know it says may, but if its cost and effect to deactivate it would you have to activate a new one?

many times U&T may be the only art in a pile so if it was ruled to be cost and effect then you would need a second art in the pile in order to deactivate it and you would be required to activate the other. 

this may help settle some of the potency of U&T if it is cost and effect
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Chris

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 03:27:26 PM »
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The last ruling I heard (I want to say it was from Gabe), you do not need to activate another artifact to deactivate U&T, even if you have another artifact in the pile.
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 03:28:33 PM »
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Quote from: Chris on April 18, 2013, 03:27:26 PM
The last ruling I heard (I want to say it was from Gabe), you do not need to activate another artifact to deactivate U&T, even if you have another artifact in the pile.

if we would change that ruling it may calm down the power of u&t just my opinion
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 03:28:57 PM »
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No, may/ands translate to you may do this and you may do that.  You can deactivate without activating.  Even if it was a cost/benefit you could STILL deactivate because the deactivation would be the cost, and you can pay the cost without getting the benefit.
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Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 03:30:47 PM »
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But if we change the ruling, then all abilities with "may do this and this" are forcefully tied together, which would affect lots of situations just to nerf U&T a little.

Quote from: Drrek on April 18, 2013, 03:28:57 PM
No, may/ands translate to you may do this and you may do that.  You can deactivate without activating.  Even if it was a cost/benefit you could STILL deactivate because the deactivation would be the cost, and you can pay the cost without getting the benefit.

Also this.  You need the cost to use the effect.  You don't need the effect to use the cost.
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browarod

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 07:25:13 PM »
+1
Quote from: Drrek on April 18, 2013, 03:28:57 PM
No, may/ands translate to you may do this and you may do that.
I've always heard this is the case, but I've never actually seen anyone use it to keep U&T active AND activate another artifact (which, by a strict reading of the card, you should be able to do). *broke the game*
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 07:30:04 PM »
+3
Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2013, 07:25:13 PM
Quote from: Drrek on April 18, 2013, 03:28:57 PM
No, may/ands translate to you may do this and you may do that.
I've always heard this is the case, but I've never actually seen anyone use it to keep U&T active AND activate another artifact (which, by a strict reading of the card, you should be able to do). *broke the game*

You can certainly activate another artifact, but only as allowed in the rules governing artifacts.  The artifact pile can only hold 1.  You could certainly leave U&T up and activate Magic Charms onto a magician or a Temple Artifact onto an empty temple, but not a second artifact onto your artifact pile (and in most situations, you can do those other actions after deactivating U&T anyway).

The card does not specify that it can change the number of active artifacts in the pile, so it cannot break the rule.
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Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 07:31:43 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2013, 07:25:13 PM
Quote from: Drrek on April 18, 2013, 03:28:57 PM
No, may/ands translate to you may do this and you may do that.
I've always heard this is the case, but I've never actually seen anyone use it to keep U&T active AND activate another artifact (which, by a strict reading of the card, you should be able to do). *broke the game*

Because no one ever wants to expose their U&T, unless it's to attract a DoN so their other artifacts are safe(r).  ::)  Plus, the artifact pile can only have one active artifact as a game rule, which would take precedence over the SA of a card.

*Edit* Ninja'd
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browarod

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 10:09:38 PM »
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I know, I just like to point out the inconsistencies of some cards that overrule game rules and some game rules (that don't specify that they do) that override all cards. :P
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Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 10:28:32 PM »
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What cards overrule game rules?  'Cause I thought game rules were absolute and had precedence over all abilities  ???
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browarod

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 10:33:59 PM »
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All special abilities change or get around game rules, that's what they're there for, lol. You can't normally take an opponent's character and put it in your Land of Bondage as a Lost Soul, but capture lets you change that. Normally you only draw 3 at the beginning of your turn, but draw abilities let you draw outside of that.

If this was not the case, then the hand limit game rule wouldn't need the clarifying test that it overrides all cards.
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Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 01:05:17 AM »
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Oh, that's what you mean.  I thought you meant there were a couple cards that somehow broke game rules.  Oops  ::)
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Offline Minion of Jesus

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 08:03:01 AM »
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This brings up a question. What happens if right as I activate U&T my opponent DoN's it? Do I get to activate another artifact? Probably not, but I just want to be sure.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 08:18:39 AM »
+1
The entire SA of U&T must complete before DoN can be played. You cannot insert dominants in the middle of SAs. That is what makes U&T so powerful.

**EDIT** For reference, the SA begins with "Upon activation," which is why DoN cannot be played immediately after it is flipped up for activation.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 08:30:01 AM by YourMathTeacher »
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Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 09:42:31 AM »
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1767   Urim and Thurmmim.jpg   Urim and Thummim   -   Exodus 28:30   -   A   On activation, if you have a High Priest in play or set aside area, look at one opponent's hand. You may then deactivate this Artifact and to activate a different Artifact.   N

Should be changed to make it cost for activating a new art...

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2013, 10:09:38 PM
I know, I just like to point out the inconsistencies of some cards that overrule game rules and some game rules (that don't specify that they do) that override all cards. :P

I agree
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Urim and Thummim question
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2013, 06:37:16 PM »
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Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 19, 2013, 09:42:31 AM
1767   Urim and Thurmmim.jpg   Urim and Thummim   -   Exodus 28:30   -   A   On activation, if you have a High Priest in play or set aside area, look at one opponent's hand. You may then deactivate this Artifact and to activate a different Artifact.   N

Should be changed to make it cost for activating a new art...

There is no need for a cost, as pointed out above.  You cannot go over the limit of 1 artifact active in the pile, so all it could do is allow you to leave U&T up (which has zero upside in any scenario I can think of outside of somehow knowing your opponent is going to throw up Joseph's Silver Cup) and activate a different artifact on a different location...which you can already do.  The only difference is having an active U&T and being unable to activate said artifact on the pile.  So if you for some reason decide to do only the second part, you can only restrict yourself.

There is no benefit, no breaking of the game, and no rules contradiction.  Therefore, you will definitely not get the Elders to errata it.
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