Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: amelo on January 03, 2009, 03:56:44 PM
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Here's the situation:
I RA with a red brigade hero and opponent blocks. I have initiative and play United Army, banding in all of my OT warrior class heroes. The problem is one of those heroes is Benaniah. What happens? Is Benaniah not able to enter battle?
United Army: red brigade good enhancement, special ability: All OT warrior class heroes must join the battle.
Benaiah: green brigade hero, special ability: Negate all special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weopon class enhancements.
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i think it is negated
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The battle goes FBTN cept WC. No heroes are banded in. Continue flow of init.
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The battle goes FBTN cept WC. No heroes are banded in. Continue flow of init.
Correct.
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The battle goes FBTN cept WC. No heroes are banded in. Continue flow of init.
Correct.
Depends.
For example, in the scenario where you play United Army on Spy and band in Isrealite Archer who bands in Heldai who bands in Benaiah, and you use IA's arrow, then Spy, UA, Heldai and Benny stay in battle. IA goes back to territory but the EC that was shot with the arrow stays discarded.
Remember to complete abilities before moving on to the next WC hero you band in. And only go back and negate the non-warrior and non-weapon class abilities.
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I disagree, the negate of the band would cascade to negate all of the other abilities because it's treated like they were never in battle.
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I disagree, the negate of the band would cascade to negate all of the other abilities because it's treated like they were never in battle.
Correct.
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Yep, unless it's like gathering of angels or any other cbn band. :)
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I disagree, the negate of the band would cascade to negate all of the other abilities because it's treated like they were never in battle.
Only if you band in Benaiah first.
It is the same reason players will choose Captain of the Host first prior to The Strong Angel when playing Three Angels.
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I disagree. Benaiah negates United Army which undoes the first banding and therefore all the rest (except CBN).
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I disagree, the negate of the band would cascade to negate all of the other abilities because it's treated like they were never in battle.
Only if you band in Benaiah first.
It is the same reason players will choose Captain of the Host first prior to The Strong Angel when playing Three Angels.
That's different. In your scenario, everything is prevented except banding. The banding can still take place.
In this scenario, Benaniah negates the band. He doesn't directly negate IA, Spy, whoever, but by negating the band he indirectly negates them.
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I think where you may be getting confused is that in my scenario Heldai and Benaiah are in battle as a result of IA's special ability, not United Army. A "band all" or "band many" special ability works differently than a string of "band to single" special abilities. The cascading negate effect, or "house of cards" impacts each differently, especially since warrior-class Benaiah isn't truly a "negate all". He is a "negate all non-warrior and non-weapon class", which is only a subset. Let's look at the REG:
Banding a “play by the numbers” character negates the banding ability. The character must return to the territory. However, the battle is now “play by the numbers” because a “play by the numbers” card cannot negate itself. The cards in a banding chain that follow the first banding card that can be negated are all negated. The net result is that the cards are indirectly negated. This situation is typically referred to as the “cascading negates” or the “house of cards”.
The key sentence is "The cards in a banding chain that follow the first banding card that can be negated are all negated". The banding ability on IA that brings in Heldai is not negated. All the heroes that are brought in by United Army are returned to territory.
IF I had banded in IA, decided not to use his SA, then banded in Heldai, decided not to use his SA, and finally banded in Benaiah, THEN all the heroes would return to territory because they were all banded in as a result of United Army.
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If you negate United Army, you indirectly negate Israelite Archer. Doesn't matter if the rest were banded because of Israelite Archer because having him brought into battle in the first place is negated in either scenario.
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STAMP, the quote you used from the REG is exactly the reason that the band "cascades" away. United Army is directly negated, while all the rest are indirectly negated. Your premise that they are WC would only keep them in if they were trying to be directly negated.
Your other quote - "The cards in a banding chain that follow the first banding card that can be negated are all negated." - refers to cards that have CBN status, which none of the ones you mentioned have. They all can be negated, just not directly by Benaiah (Kings).
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I also disagree, STAMP. I used sadducees to band to all other sadducees. However, that included another "sadducees" that banded to all sadducees. However, when Gabe played cymbals of the levites, it negated the first sadducees ability, which "indirectly" negated the other sadducees. That's just how it works. It's as if IA was never banded in.
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Fortunately for YMT and fireninja they do not attend tournaments I judge. ;)
As for DaClock, it's just fortunate he doesn't play fbtn wc-banding. :D
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I need to capture some demons.
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:rollin:
:rollin:
:rollin:
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Speaking of which, we talked about you at Josh's tournament. I gave somebody Doubt, it was captured, and Sog was played on it. We figured you would like that.
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It's a redeemed captured demon AND it's a dominant. Great. Just great.
:D
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actually, Doubt's not a demon. It's a "Generic OT Genderless (not Human, not Demon)"
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I used sadducees to band to all other sadducees. However, that included another "sadducees" that banded to all sadducees. However, when Gabe played cymbals of the levites, it negated the first sadducees ability, which "indirectly" negated the other sadducees.
One word for the Sadds banding.........Besieged.
Godspeed,
Mike
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actually, Doubt's not a demon. It's a "Generic OT Genderless (not Human, not Demon)"
You're right... bummer. One day, we will find a way to redeem a demon... lol. But only if the playtesters make a mistake. :laugh:
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You can :-p its called baggage ;)
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Getting back to the original issue, I just remembered an example that has been being used since Kings. Armorbearer xN to Isrealite Archer xN to Benaiah. DaClock and NWJosh have used this in T2 a lot over the years. When Benaiah comes in the only heroes that have been returned to territory are the ones banded in by an Armorbearer.
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I think that that would be illegal, wouldn't it?
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I think that that would be illegal, wouldn't it?
Sounds like it. Scott, I don't remember that being the case but we've ruled a lot of things wrong in the past. Anyway, I think this is another thing where we just need an official ruling but the official rulers seem to be pretty busy lately.
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I'll have to agree with everyone else and disagree with Scott on this one. Negates cascade. If Benny negates the original banding card it doesn't matter if everyone else was warrior class or not, they're indirectly negated.
Banding a “play by the numbers” character negates the banding ability. The character must return to the territory. However, the battle is now “play by the numbers” because a “play by the numbers” card cannot negate itself. The cards in a banding chain that follow the first banding card that can be negated are all negated. The net result is that the cards are indirectly negated. This situation is typically referred to as the “cascading negates” or the “house of cards”.
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haha, you're the second person to try to tell me how to boost my sads defense. I know how to make it work. I was simply posting that as an example of how the "house of cards" works. :)
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Double Post?
No Information relevant to the discussion?
Look and Think before you post.
On topic: Negates cascade. If I negate your banding card that started a huge band with say might of faith then the whole band is negated.