Author Topic: DoN vs. I am Truth (Read 9058 times)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #25 on:** December 29, 2008, 11:14:11 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 29, 2008, 10:37:05 AM

The ability to confer CBN status is not an on-going ability, however.

This is really the point that needs to be addressed. The REG Glossary for "Special Abilities" says this:

There are two types of special abilities that define how a special ability is carried out: Ongoing Abilities and Instant Abilities.

Personally, I think the "Other" category was created to address specific issues with CBN and */*, but I could be wrong. If there is a third category that does not fall under the other two, then the REG needs to be updated since it contradicts itself.

I would argue that "triggered" abilities still fall under either instant or ongoing, based on what they do. For instance, "If used by a Babylonian, discard a hero," has a trigger, but it is an Instant ability. Likewise, "If used by Michael, enhancements cannot be negated," has a trigger, but it is an ongoing ability since it can be used more than once at any time during the battle.

I am Truth and King Zedekiah have stipulations that might count as "triggers." There is no "if used by" trigger. These appear to be general abilities that activate in battle and just sit around waiting for someone to need them, much like immunity.

_______________________________________________

We will ultimately need a PTB decision to edit/clarify the REG so that the apparent contradiction about how many types of Special Abilities is addressed.

Gabe · « **Reply #26 on:** December 29, 2008, 11:21:02 AM »

I might be willing to bet the farm on YMT's explanation though. Well said.

STAMP · « **Reply #27 on:** December 29, 2008, 11:35:15 AM »

CBN is CBN. It can be instant, ongoing, or triggered. For ongoing or triggered, once turned on in a phase it cannot be turned off until the end of the phase.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 29, 2008, 01:20:21 PM »

I understand where y'all are coming from, but it still seems strange to me that one can bend space and time and use an artifact or a character that has been discarded to grant an enhancement CBN status.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #29 on:** December 29, 2008, 01:41:15 PM »

I take it you don't like negates then?

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #30 on:** December 29, 2008, 01:43:56 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 29, 2008, 01:41:15 PM

I take it you don't like negates then?

To be honest, I'm really not all that crazy about negates that don't activate until well after they have been placed in the discard pile. Just a hangup I have.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #31 on:** December 29, 2008, 03:50:52 PM »

I can't do anything about your "hangups"

, but as a final consolation consider Melchizedek:

Protect all Heroes in play from capture, conversion and poison abilities.

If I have a hero banded to Melchizedek, then they both are protected. If Melchizedek gets discarded during the battle, wouldn't the other hero still be protected? The fact that the big M is in the discard pile wasting away does not change the fact that his ability was activated and remains activated. Just his one-time presence in battle provided the protection, as long as that protection is not negated.

That is the basic premise here, with the added bonus that the CBN-granting SA cannot be negated either.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #32 on:** December 29, 2008, 10:59:07 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 29, 2008, 03:50:52 PM

I can't do anything about your "hangups" , but as a final consolation consider Melchizedek:

The Melchizedek example you provided doesn't really console me, as I don't think it is the same situation at all. I have no problems with an enhancement being CBN (a hero being protected) if it is played prior to I am Truth (Melchizedek) getting discarded.

What I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around would be a case where...

1) Cherubim enters battle banded to Melchizedek.
2) Melchizedek gets CM'ed
3) EC blocks
4) Three Angels is played on Cherubim and bands in Michael and Gabriel from hand.

Suddenly, Michael and Gabriel are protected from capture and conversion, even though neither was ever in play at the same time as Melchizedek was.

I understand mechanically why this works. It still, however, strikes me as counter-intuitive because I don't think of Melchizedek's ability as an on-going ability. I picture it as an instantaneous SA that confers an on-going SA to other cards.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #33 on:** December 30, 2008, 12:12:26 AM »

OOPS! Your example was what I meant, but I got myself confused.

I am right there with you. Earlier in this thread I was the one who was ready to defend what your intuition is trying to convince you. Gabe had to go and bring up the mechanics that you are referring to. I am compelled to follow the mechanics for no other reason than consistency.

However, if you can find a way to override the mechanics, then I will gladly bring in the reinforcements. We'll have Gabe outflanked.

STAMP · « **Reply #34 on:** December 30, 2008, 11:40:57 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 29, 2008, 10:59:07 PM

What I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around would be a case where...

1) Cherubim enters battle banded to Melchizedek.
2) Melchizedek gets CM'ed
3) EC blocks
4) Three Angels is played on Cherubim and bands in Michael and Gabriel from hand.

Suddenly, Michael and Gabriel are protected from capture and conversion, even though neither was ever in play at the same time as Melchizedek was.

No, this does not occur. Considering the rulebook:

Quote from: rulebook

Concerning Target for Special Abilities

When you choose a target for a special ability that target cannot change.

If a special ability is prevented, and the prevent is later negated, then you can select a target for the ability. It never targeted in the first place, so there is no change in targets.

If a dominant is played that was intended to target a certain card, it may be picked up if the intended target is no longer available due to the effect of another card. It never made the actual targeting, since the target was never really available. So, there is no true change of targets.

If a non-dominant ability is activated and an available, legal target is selected, then that target cannot change. If the ability is interrupted, and the target is removed, then a second target cannot be selected.

Although the protection is ongoing, targets are established when the SA is activated. In your scenario, Michael and Gabriel were not targeted with the protection. However, since the protection was not negated Cherubim will retain the protection.

For CBN in the cases that have been mentioned, the targets that are established when the SA is activated are triggered targets.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #35 on:** December 30, 2008, 01:46:45 PM »

This seems to be contradictory. The whole premise of the CBN-granting scenario is that the SA is ongoing throughout the Battle Phase whether the card with the SA was present or not. Protect is definitive as an ongoing ability, so why would this be different?

If I am Truth can confer postmortem CBN to cards, then Michael and Gabriel are protected for the exact same reason. If Michael and Gabriel are not protected, then IaT can not give CBN status to cards played after IaT has been DoN'ed.

I think we need a final ruling here, because I am getting very confused (not that anyone should be surprised). Every once in a while I see the ghostly blue image of "Bryon" in the Who's Online section, but then I splash water on my face and it is gone.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #36 on:** December 30, 2008, 03:00:12 PM »

First, I just want to say I am glad I am not the only one confused on this point.

Quote from: STAMP on December 30, 2008, 11:40:57 AM

Although the protection is ongoing, targets are established when the SA is activated. In your scenario, Michael and Gabriel were not targeted with the protection. However, since the protection was not negated Cherubim will retain the protection.

What if Melchizedek were not CM'ed and was still in battle when Gabriel and Michael were banded in? Would they be protected or not?

Gabe · « **Reply #37 on:** December 30, 2008, 03:37:24 PM »

Here's an example that I think will help us understand that the protection lasts for all characters:

I rescue with Seraphim banded to Jacob banded to CotH. My opponent played CM on CotH. I've being blocked by a big fish (12/12) so I have initiative. I play Three Angels and band in Gabriel and The Destroyer. I think we all know and agree that the special ability of Gabriel and The Destroyer are still negated by CotH even though he's not in play.

The same principle applies to the example with Mel.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #38 on:** December 30, 2008, 03:46:49 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 30, 2008, 03:37:24 PM

Here's an example that I think will help us understand that the protection lasts for all characters:

I think we all agree that any protection in palce when Mel gets discarded will last for all characters. The question I have is whether Melchizedek's ability to confer such protection lasts for the remainder of the phase.

Quote

I rescue with Seraphim banded to Jacob banded to CotH. My opponent played CM on CotH. I've being blocked by a big fish (12/12) so I have initiative. I play Three Angels and band in Gabriel and The Destroyer. I think we all know and agree that the special ability of Gabriel and The Destroyer are still negated by CotH even though he's not in play.

The same principle applies to the example with Mel.

Just to clarify. It appears to me that you are disagreeing with STAMP and saying that in my example Melchizedek does provide protection to characters, even if he was discarded prior to those characters being put into play.

Am I interpreting your analogy correctly, Gabe?

Gabe · « **Reply #39 on:** December 30, 2008, 03:50:31 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 30, 2008, 03:46:49 PM

Am I interpreting your analogy correctly, Gabe?

Yes, if Mel's abilitty isn't negated the protection remains, including any Heroes added to play during the phase.

STAMP · « **Reply #40 on:** December 30, 2008, 04:21:26 PM »

While what you both are saying makes a lot of sense, it goes against what has been defined for targeting. While protection is an ongoing ability, I just can't see it acquiring new targets on an ongoing basis.

Of course, what I've been saying about "cannot be negated" status does seem to target on an ongoing basis (i.e. enhancements played on Michael).

I guess we really need the PTB to weigh in, and possibly a revision of the targeting section in the REG.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #41 on:** December 30, 2008, 10:39:59 PM »

I don't really think Mel's targets actually change, though. His ability just targets any hero 'in Play'

As long as a Hero is 'in Play' is fulfills Mel's ability and is thus protected accordingly, whether Mel has been DCed or not.

I think it's the same with IaT, it doesn't change targets, but just allows any card that fulfills the requirements to gain CBN status whether IaT gets DCed or not.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #42 on:** July 18, 2009, 07:45:21 PM »

Did this ever get decided?!?

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #43 on:** July 19, 2009, 09:42:54 AM »

Protection is an ongoing ability, so taking a card with a protect ability out of play doesn't negate it. That much is simple.

As far as DoN'ing I Am Truth, I would rule that I Am Truth is not an ongoing ability. It is very much a triggered ability. As such, if it is active and you play an ignore, it cannot be negated, even if you play DoN before you try to negate it. If it is active during the battle phase and you play DoN on I Am Truth prior to the ignore card being played, the ignore CAN be negated.

Kevin Shride

STAMP · « **Reply #44 on:** July 19, 2009, 12:04:41 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Shride on July 19, 2009, 09:42:54 AM

Protection is an ongoing ability, so taking a card with a protect ability out of play doesn't negate it. That much is simple.

As far as DoN'ing I Am Truth, I would rule that I Am Truth is not an ongoing ability. It is very much a triggered ability. As such, if it is active and you play an ignore, it cannot be negated, even if you play DoN before you try to negate it. If it is active during the battle phase and you play DoN on I Am Truth prior to the ignore card being played, the ignore CAN be negated.

Kevin Shride

I disagree. Cannot-be-negated sticks to the table. If I band Unlcean Spirit to King Zed followed by my opponent playing Angel of the Lord on King Zed, I can still play Dungeon of Malchiah and it cannot be negated.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #45 on:** July 19, 2009, 12:16:08 PM »

I've actually done that before.

My thoughts on this matter are that as soon as I Am Truth is activated, either as an artifact or as an enhancement, its ability sticks throughout the current phase regardless of discard or negation, because it can't be negated.

NWJosh · « **Reply #46 on:** July 19, 2009, 12:30:26 PM »

I too would lean on the side of "can't be negated" lasts for an entire phase. So DoN would have to be played pre-battle phase for ignore cards to be negated.

The Guardian · « **Reply #47 on:** July 19, 2009, 02:30:10 PM »

w/ STAMP, BB and Josh.

Enhancements with "ignores" in the ability CBN during any phase in which I am Truth was at some point active.

crustpope · « **Reply #48 on:** July 19, 2009, 10:24:40 PM »

"Cannot be negated, cannot be negated" and anything that grants CBN status CBN itself, In this way "I Am Holy can be Discarded but it cannot be negated during that phase. Its in the ten commandments. Read it, live it, love it.

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Author Topic: DoN vs. I am Truth (Read 9058 times)