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Author Topic: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory  (Read 1651 times)

Offline Redoubter

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'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« on: October 23, 2013, 05:33:11 PM »
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For cards that are protected from opponents (like through Fortify Site) and then end up in that opponent's territory (like through Canaan, where does that protection end?  Can those cards be chosen to block a rescue, for example?  That is how I have seen it consistently ruled, but it is something I've never seen discuss.

So...

discuss.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 07:03:13 PM »
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Fortify Site says 'while it remains in territory'. I'm fairly certain that also means 'your territory'.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 07:08:50 PM »
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Quote from: Master KChief on October 23, 2013, 07:03:13 PM
Fortify Site says 'while it remains in territory'. I'm fairly certain that also means 'your territory'.

While I understand that concept, "territory" is more broad.  When a card mentions territory, it can often mean any territory.  It is not like draw or discard piles, where references automatically default to 'your' draw and discard.  If it doesn't say 'your' in this case, it can't be inferred.  If there is a rule you can point to otherwise, that'd help.

EDIT: For reference to a card that treats this term as I describe, see King Rehoboam.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 07:11:49 PM by Redoubter »
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 07:24:09 PM »
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The term is singular. It can only ever reference one territory once activated. For King Rehoboam, this would likely be one opponent's territory. However, in most other cases it is referring to your territory.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 07:30:45 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 23, 2013, 07:24:09 PM
The term is singular. It can only ever reference one territory once activated. For King Rehoboam, this would likely be one opponent's territory. However, in most other cases it is referring to your territory.

There are cards that refer to territory in general, and then there are cards referring to 'your', 'opponent's', 'a', and 'any' territory.  They are different for a reason, from my reading.  Do you have any card/rule/ruling that would support the idea that territory would be 'yours' and 'yours' alone?  The differentiation among cards seems to support the other idea, that 'territory' is general.  For example, with Rehoboam, you're trying to say that it would be different from all other cards with the same wording, but why would that be?
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 07:35:56 PM »
+1
I didn't say it was "your." I said it was singular. If you activated the ability on Fortify Site, then you must put the character in your own territory. Since the "it" refers to that character, the "territory" must be your own.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 07:39:58 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 23, 2013, 07:35:56 PM
If you activated the ability on Fortify Site, then you must put the character in your own territory. Since the "it" refers to that character, the "territory" must be your own.

Actually, the ability on Fortify Site calls for you to put the EC "in play," which defaults to your territory by definition of "put in play".  It doesn't ever reference what territory for the second part of the ability, since it uses other terms and abilities, if it were to be singular.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 07:41:03 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 23, 2013, 07:35:56 PM
I didn't say it was "your." I said it was singular. If you activated the ability on Fortify Site, then you must put the character in your own territory. Since the "it" refers to that character, the "territory" must be your own.

Nailed it. Can you put the character or site from Fortify Site into your opponents territory? It is my understanding the territory in the second line of Fortify site is in reference to the territory that character or site is put in from the first line.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 07:42:23 PM »
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Quote from: Master KChief on October 23, 2013, 07:41:03 PM
Can you put the character or site from Fortify Site into your opponents territory?

Quote from: Redoubter on October 23, 2013, 07:39:58 PM
Actually, the ability on Fortify Site calls for you to put the EC "in play," which defaults to your territory by definition of "put in play".
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 07:45:12 PM »
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Quote from: Master KChief on October 23, 2013, 07:41:03 PM
It is my understanding the territory in the second line of Fortify site is in reference to the territory that character or site is put in from the first line.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2013, 07:49:18 PM »
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I disagree with your assertion, and your post was predicated on the first part of Fortify Site referring to 'territory' and that it must be singular, otherwise, you'd be able to put it in opponent's territory.  Given the time after my post for your post, I figured you must not have seen my reply, which is why I pointed you to the same answer to your question as I gave to YMT.  Hopefully that makes sense now.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2013, 07:52:45 PM »
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I disagree with your assertion.  ;)

Since you must put the character into your own territory, the "territory" is "your territory." There is no other option. Since the territory that the card is referring to is set, there is no way to argue that it could ever be your opponent's territory. Ergo, the protection only is in effect in your own territory.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2013, 07:59:06 PM »
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Well I declare your disputation disagreeable!

In any case, I do understand the position you are putting forward, but I would counter that 'territory' is a reference all on its own, that the "put in play" component is to indicate where the card goes to negate and discard an artifact, while the second component refers to the protection, as they are separate abilities.

At this point, we are just going around in circles, I think all the points have been made that can ;)  Let's wait to see who has something else to add (particularly an Elder).  After all this, the one thing I see as most important is having a consistent definition of what 'territory' means, in all of its iterations.  That'd make me happy :)
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2013, 08:22:27 PM »
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It has less to do with definitions of keywords and more to do with whether/when card abilities make reference to the same ability on a card.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 10:45:26 AM »
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YMT and MKC are correct. If a card specifies a singular location (deck, discard pile, territory, hand, LoR, etc.) without directly specifying whose location it is referring to, it ALWAYS defaults to the person playing the card. King Rehoboam can only cause two Heroes from your territory to fight. It's a bit odd, but let's be honest, most side battles that don't involve a character in battle end up happening between two characters of the player who used the ability. But it's also why the new Rehoboam says 'territories'.

So if Fortify Site protects a chatracter and that character moves anywhere out of the territory, the character is no longer protected.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: 'Protected from Opponents' in Territory
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2013, 05:01:12 PM »
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Quote from: Professoralstad on October 24, 2013, 10:45:26 AM
If a card specifies a singular location (deck, discard pile, territory, hand, LoR, etc.) without directly specifying whose location it is referring to, it ALWAYS defaults to the person playing the card.

Well...unless it says something like "opponent must discard a card from hand/territory" without the word 'their'...I hope that doesn't mean it refers to the person playing the card against them and they blow up cards in those locations ;)

In all seriousness though, is there a rule that currently documents that?  If not, is it something that could be added to the definitions for those locations?
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