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I can't believe this thread has gone on for this long.

Artifacts that have an optional use can be used at the holder's discretion.  Rob very clearly stated this.  I don't understand why anyone would argue that's not the case when he said it directly.

Arguing that the word "may" absent means it is a required use, even though "may" was replaced with "when holder chooses", is nonsense.  If it MUST be used when it's activated, that's not when the holder chooses, is it?  They both mean the same thing, that the ability is optional, and I can't think of a single logical reason to argue that either one of those statements don't clearly give an option.

The paragraph added in the REG about required uses refers to the number of times you can use the Artifact.  Since Rob stated (see above) that Artifacts with an optional ability are used when the holder chooses to use it, what you have to do is understand the rules as a whole and not nitpick the tiny parts.
1). Some Artifacts are used immediately and by requirement, some Artifacts are used when the holder chooses.
2). In both cases, a use is a use is a use.  Meaning, you don't get to cancel a use of Ark just because someone played Zeal, and you don't get to cancel a use of Tribute just because you banded to Spirit of Doubt and negated a Hero's ability.

Trying to map one statement onto another in order to manufacture a contradiction solves nothing.  Look at all of the rules together.

@ Crustpope.
Er, I'm being oblivious? I've read people's arguments and understand them, and all I want is consistency. Crustpope, Unknown Nation and Go Into Captivity don't have turn limits. Their ability is "Discard the card to..." not "May be used X times" like AT, UW, and the other arts I've listed. If you'd like to ignore the rulebook, go ahead, but as it stands some form of change needs to be made for consistency's sake. I don't really care what change happens (Play As, Errata, Rulebook edit, ruling these arts to work like AT) but the current system doesn't work the way it is.

Also, if a thread's annoying you, you don't have to read it :/

Thanks for the rulebook quote.  It's worth noting the the PDF rulebook (and the printed rulebook) do not have the sentence you bolded.  So apparently that's a modification made by Mike, presumably as a response to Rob's post.  In which case Unholy Writ was an oversight.  Now that you have brought Unholy Writ up we can correct the sentence to account for Unholy Writ.

I don't usually have the PDF or printed rulebooks on me, so I was simply going off of what was in the REG one Also, that works for me, like I said all I care is that it's consistent.

Unholy Writ is optional.  Assyrian Tribute is conditional.  With an optional ability you choose whether or not you will use it.  With a conditional ability you have to use it and the game (whether or not the condition is satisfied) determines whether or not it has any effect.  Does that explain the difference?

But I view "When holder chooses" as a condition, and I'm not the only one. Just because that condition isn't fulfilled doesn't mean the artifact wasn't activated (read: used)

Artifacts that have an optional use can be used at the holder's discretion.  Rob very clearly stated this.  I don't understand why anyone would argue that's not the case when he said it directly.

Arguing that the word "may" absent means it is a required use, even though "may" was replaced with "when holder chooses", is nonsense.  If it MUST be used when it's activated, that's not when the holder chooses, is it?  They both mean the same thing, that the ability is optional, and I can't think of a single logical reason to argue that either one of those statements don't clearly give an option.

The paragraph added in the REG about required uses refers to the number of times you can use the Artifact.  Since Rob stated (see above) that Artifacts with an optional ability are used when the holder chooses to use it, what you have to do is understand the rules as a whole and not nitpick the tiny parts.
1). Some Artifacts are used immediately and by requirement, some Artifacts are used when the holder chooses.
2). In both cases, a use is a use is a use.  Meaning, you don't get to cancel a use of Ark just because someone played Zeal, and you don't get to cancel a use of Tribute just because you banded to Spirit of Doubt and negated a Hero's ability.

Trying to map one statement onto another in order to manufacture a contradiction solves nothing.  Look at all of the rules together.

The thing is I've not seen a portion where Rob referred to Optional Artifact abilities mixed with limited uses. If someone could point me to that I'd be glad to read it, but the two quotes shown on this thread aren't referring to these sorts of artifacts.

Also, it's not that the ability must be used, it's that the artifact must count as being used (source: REG rulebook), which is only really important for limited use artifacts.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. :|

As I said before,

Quote from: SirNobody on July 27, 2009, 05:23:16 PM

For artifacts that are conditional and for artifacts that simply happen, activating the artifact (and it not being negated) is all that has to happen for it to qualify as a use.  For artifacts that are optional, the option must be invoked to qualify as a use.

But that's not what Rob said, and it's also not what's in the rules. If this was edited in/added/whatever to the rules, then that'd be fine too I suppose.

I don't usually have the PDF or printed rulebooks on me, so I was simply going off of what was in the REG one  Also, that works for me, like I said all I care is that it's consistent.

This is not about consistency! What do you not get? These are two different meanings and phrases, how many people that are more knowledgeable than you have to tell you this so you get it? It is not inconsistent since it is not the same thing like everyone has been trying to get through to you. If the examples you stated were the same then maybe you would have a case, but just in one page crustpope, Tim, and Stephen, all came on here and said otherwise, yet you still are lingering around. This is ruled the way it should be and will NOT get changed and everyone has given you plenty of evidence of why. Crustpope was completely right when he said what he said. Just leave this alone, it will not be changed and the wording is how it should be.

I can't believe this thread has gone on for this long.

Artifacts that have an optional use can be used at the holder's discretion.  Rob very clearly stated this.  I don't understand why anyone would argue that's not the case when he said it directly.

Arguing that the word "may" absent means it is a required use, even though "may" was replaced with "when holder chooses", is nonsense.  If it MUST be used when it's activated, that's not when the holder chooses, is it?  They both mean the same thing, that the ability is optional, and I can't think of a single logical reason to argue that either one of those statements don't clearly give an option.

The paragraph added in the REG about required uses refers to the number of times you can use the Artifact.  Since Rob stated (see above) that Artifacts with an optional ability are used when the holder chooses to use it, what you have to do is understand the rules as a whole and not nitpick the tiny parts.
1). Some Artifacts are used immediately and by requirement, some Artifacts are used when the holder chooses.
2). In both cases, a use is a use is a use.  Meaning, you don't get to cancel a use of Ark just because someone played Zeal, and you don't get to cancel a use of Tribute just because you banded to Spirit of Doubt and negated a Hero's ability.

Trying to map one statement onto another in order to manufacture a contradiction solves nothing.  Look at all of the rules together.

End of story.

I don't really care what the artifact's special ability is. What I'm talking about is use limits, and how the rulebook defines them. the RULEBOOK in the REG says that when an artifact says "Used" it means Activated. The entry on Manually Triggered Abilities on Artifacts says NOTHING about them not being counted as "used" unless the ability is completed.

Rob's ONLY talking about special abilities in that thread. He doesn't once reference turn limits except as a side note from the rulebook quote he posted. I'm not saying that when you activate UW you HAVE to capture a hero RIGHT THEN. The SA on Writ is very clear that you can, at any time UW is active, capture a hero in battle.

What I AM saying is that, at least following the AT ruling, an artifact can be used without it's SA ever effecting anything. The turn limit has no dependence on any other abilities the card may or may not have. For example, if I activate The Silver Trumpets, but never enter battle with a Priest during that turn, it still should still count as having been "used" as it was active for that round.

Similarly, with it's current wording, UW should be discarded after being active for one round regardless of whether it ever captured any hero.

I still think it is simpler to change "Limited Use" artifacts to "Two Use" artifacts. Are there any artifacts that fall under the "activation=use" rule that do not have two uses? All the "optional use" artifacts are single use, correct?

The ability may not have been used, but the artifact was. Just like in my Silver Trumpet's example.

An artifact can be used without ever effecting anything. Just like there's the stipulation in the rulebook that if an artifact's ability is negated, it doesn't negate the use of it. Even though it's not doing anything, the artifact has still been activated.

So If I play Burial Shroud and you activate Cov W/ Moses, I still get two uses of Shroud? cool.

Ah, that why I should read, and not post at midnight right before nationals....

i just read all 7 pages of that. I want my 25 minutes back. 

Then you are a stronger man than me

Ark specifies 2 discards, not 2 uses.  Currently, I think Thirty Pieces should be used up even if no discard occurs.