Author Topic: Herod's Dungeon questions  (Read 1958 times)

Offline Gabe

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Herod's Dungeon questions
« on: October 23, 2009, 06:28:35 PM »
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Herod’s Dungeon
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: While blocking with a Herod while this Site is unoccupied, you may capture a male human Hero with strength 7/* or greater and place it here. When you block with Herodias, you may discard a captured Hero.

All three questions assume H. Dungeon is empty and the opponent rescues with a Hero 7/* or greater.

#1 - I block with a Herod banded to Herodias.  Am I able to capture the Hero, then immediately discard it?

#2 - I block with a Herod and choose to use H. Dungeon to capture the Hero in battle.  Is there any moment where my opponent can play a Dominant (AotL or Grapes) before they're captured?

#3 - I block with a Herod and choose to capture a Hero in battle.  Since it's an ability outside of battle, does my opponent have initiative and what exactly can they play that would stop Herod's Dungeon.  I don't think "Interrupt the Battle" abilities would work since the Site is not in battle.  What about The Silver Trumpets?  Any others?

Quote from: REG > Instant Abilities > Interrupt or Negate Last > How to Use
‘Interrupt the battle’ interrupts all active ongoing abilities on characters and enhancements (e.g. Red Dragon), abilities that are causing you to lose the battle by removal (e.g. King Zimri), as well as the last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent.

The Silver Trumpets
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory into battle or interrupt the battle and return your Heroes in battle to hand. May be used twice.
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Offline Lurch

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 06:41:22 PM »
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#1 -  I believe you would be able to because you are fulfilling each of their special abilities.
#2 - Once again, i do believe so.  I guess it would be like an uzzah, as soon as it comes into battle, the special ability activates.
#3 - Your guess is as good as mine. I dont believe that interupt the battle would work because the site is not a part of the battle. Which i just realized you said. And if thats true, your opponent would not have initiative for silver trumpet because he does not have a hero in battle. 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 06:51:34 PM by Lurch »
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Offline sk

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 06:49:25 PM »
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I have no quotes or rulings to support these, but here are my thoughts:

#1 - I say no.  Herodias' part is a triggered ability that happens immediately when you block.  Herod's part is while blocking, which would be the process you are in after the moment you block.

#2 - It seems like it is the same scenario as: Do you have a chance to play an instant when they block with a WC character, prior to them using Go into Captivity?  I'm thinking yes, but I'm not sure.

#3 - That REG quote looks promising, but I'm not sure.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2009, 06:52:37 PM »
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#1: i believe so. either you fulfill abilities in the order they are printed on the card, or the owner of the card gets to choose which order they are fulfilled in. either way, its a win-win for your scenario.

#2: no.

#3: no, they do not get initiative. i view herod's dungeon much in the same vein as unholy writ/go into captivity.
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Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2009, 10:24:27 PM »
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I have had all these questions before, but even if all the answers favor Herods, I think they would still be very hard to pull off.

BTW, I agree with KChief.
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2009, 10:53:25 PM »
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1. I would think (assuming I remember the abilities right), that you would not be able to, because you would have to complete the banding ability before you are considered "blocking," and at that point it won't work because Herodias is banded in and has to use her ability also.

2. I thought these things were ruled that since they are both responses to blocking, the blocker (since he played the last card) gets to respond to his action and use the dungeon. However, I'm not exactly sure when it's not dominant to dominant or non-dominant to non-dominant.

3. I believe Silver Trumpets would work... I'm not sure if there is any enhancement that can stop it though.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 12:28:17 AM »
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I agree with Lightning Ninja's reasoning (and the others that agree with him) for #1 and #2.  Those line up with the way I've played it.

For #3 I really don't know for sure.  I let my opponent use The Silver Trumpets when it came up, but I'm not sure that should work.  I probably lean toward MKC's explanation on this one.

Thanks everyone for weighing in.  If anyone else has additional thoughts on this I'd like to hear them and the supporting reasoning.  An official position is also nice but not easy to come by sometimes. :)
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2009, 12:56:24 AM »
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Oh... I didn't know that Unholy Writ didn't let the opponent use Silver Trumpets. Then +1 to MKC and Gabe.  ;D
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2009, 04:22:47 AM »
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block = blocking = blocked = blocks. its all the same thing, they are no different. see: reg glossary.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2009, 10:26:54 AM »
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Quote
#1 - I block with a Herod banded to Herodias.  Am I able to capture the Hero, then immediately discard it?

Is there a way for a Herod and Herodias to band together during the initial block (i.e. no other banding cards played)?

If not, it's a moot question because then the only way to get them in battle together is via a banding card and then the HD abilities activate at different times anyway.

On #2, I agree that it is the same as Go into Captivity which triggers before a dominant can be played.

On #3, I'm not sure interrupt the battle would interrupt an ability outside of battle (Herod's Dungeon).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 10:29:36 AM by The Guardian »
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Have you checked the REG?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2009, 10:36:40 AM »
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Is there a way for a Herod and Herodias to band together during the initial block (i.e. no other banding cards played)?

Herod Antipas
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: 7 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard John the Baptist. May band to Herodias.
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 11:13:48 AM »
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Hey,

#1 - "When you block with Herodias" is an event.  When you have the option to do something in response to an event (which is the case here) you must do it immediately or not at all.  Once you perform any other action you forfeit your chance to do something in response to the event.  In this case by capturing the hero you forfeit the opportunity to discard the captured hero.  Alternatively, if Herod's Dungeon is occupied (by a captured character) you could block with a Herod banded to Herodias, discard the captured character in Herod's Dungeon and immediately capture a new one.  Short answer to your question, No.

#2 - There is no exact precedent for when you can choose to activate a manually triggered ability on a site.  But based on the similar precedents of blocking Lydia with King of Tyrus then using Unholy Writ, and blocking Michael/Angel's Sword with a Warrior Class evil character then using Go Into Captivity it seems safe to conclude that there is no opportunity to play a dominant between the blocker being presented and the hero being captured.  Short answer to your question, No.

#3 - When the hero in battle is captured it gains initiative to use an interrupt or negate ability.  But it can only use an interrupt or negate ability that negates what is defeating it (the capture).  The only card I can think of that can negate or interrupt Herod's Dungeon is The Centurion at Capernaum but there would be no way to use him at that point in battle.  (Interrupt the battle only interrupts abilities on cards in battle, thus no interrupt the battle ability would work to interrupt Herod's Dungeon.)  The Silver Trumpets is an interrupt the battle ability thus it can't interrupt Herod's Dungeon.

you would have to complete the banding ability before you are considered "blocking,"

This is not correct.  The character is considered "blocking" as soon as it enters the field of battle, but you cannot perform any response to it blocking until after it's ability has completed.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 02:08:46 PM »
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Ah, okay so that's how it works. I thought in situations like this and Uzzah against Michael and his knife that he can't use the knife cause Uzzah's ability has to complete before the weapon works. I guess it's just that the weapon doesn't take EFFECT until Uzzah's ability completes.

Is that right?
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 04:48:29 PM »
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Hey,

Lightningninja, that is correct.

Tschow,

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Offline lightningninja

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Re: Herod's Dungeon questions
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 08:09:26 PM »
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Awesome, thanks for the clarificationizing.
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